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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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 Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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that is a non-sensical statement based on no factual basis what so ever, where is your evidence for that claim? celtic were founded as a club for the irish who had immigrated to scotland and wither that offends you or not we will never hide the fact that we are proud of our irish roots. when you can tell me what is sectarian about the irish tri-colour then you can make such comments.
and slg it isnt really an opposite argument as these fans fly that flag as it is a flag of a nation which they have pride in the fact that the roots of their club are from there, the same pride celtic fans feel of our roots.
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | and slg it isnt really an opposite argument as these fans fly that flag as it is a flag of a nation which they have pride in the fact that the roots of their club are from there, the same pride celtic fans feel of our roots. |
I don't have a problem with it flying there. What I was trying to say was that if Barca fly the Catalan flag, they are flying the flag of the country in which they are based - similar to Celtic flying the Saltire. Flying the Irish flag is different, and reflects the origins of the club rather than its present base. The Hibs moto is 'Erin go bragh'. Similar sort of thing. |
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parkhead_rfb
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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its still about identity though so i see it as very similar. no doubt rs feels they only do it to wind up the madrid fans though eh.
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | its still about identity though so i see it as very similar. no doubt rs feels they only do it to wind up the madrid fans though eh. |
So does the UJ represent a British identity at parkhead? |
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trueblue
3 Strikes - Banned!
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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red hand of ulster applies also then everyone?
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parkhead_rfb
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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the union jack is flown officialy by the club so imo it doesnt represent the majority of the fans who would rather it wasnt there. for me the union jack should be opposed by all who have a love for ireland due to the crimes which have been committed against ireland in the name of that flag.
you will see many redhands flown by celtic fans trueblue in the form of the original ulster flag not the plastic state imposed by the british. but if some people feel that that flag is a part of who they are then they should fly it. the reasons for flying it at ibrox i would feel are tenous, however, particulalry given that rangers were never conceived as a club for northern irish migrants but then i suppose it could be explained by the unionist nature of the rangers support, but then you dont get many welsh dragons flown at ibrox.
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"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
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Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:27 am Post subject: j |
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| Quote: | | red hand of ulster applies also then everyone? |
Why shouldn't it? It was the symbol of Ulster before it ever became the symbol of loyalism. My familys roots are in Ulster and we have a red hand on our family crest, its been there from before Northern Ireland ever existed.
As rfb says, you can see red hands in flags and banners in the Celtic support at almost any match.
But the red hand, like the UJ, the tri-colour or any other symbol CAN be sectarian just as they can equally be just flags.
I was at a pre-season match at Fulham in July. A fulham fan sitting near the segregation with the Celtic fans unfurled a UJ with the word "fulham" across it. Some of the Celtic fans reacted badly and I could see the confusion on the poor guys face. To him, and to many English fans, your teams name across a UJ is just a club flag. Eventually, thanks to a Celtic fan sitting nearby who explained to the fulham fan why he was being screamed at, he took his flag down to a cheer from the Celtic support. From this you can see two clear trains of thought.
1. The fulham fan did not have a UJ as an anti-irish, pro-british or any other sectarian statement so therefore flying his flag was not sectarian.
2. The Celtic fans were offended by the flag so therefore, to them, the showing of the flag, not the sentiment behind who is showing it, is sectarian.
Should those Celtic fans then have a consistent position and remove Irish flags based on whether people see them as offensive rather than what the intention is? Or should they say we are quite right to fly any flag we want and support other supporters doing the same?
Personally I think flags are used to identify what faction the supporters are from so therefore are part of the sectarian problem we have in Scotland.
In Manchester and Liverpool UJs and tricolours are displayed by fans of Liverpool, Everton, Man City, and Man U. They also have many catholic schools. Why is there no sectarian division in the way there is here?
In summary?
Red Hand offensive and sectarian? NO
Is it intended to be offensive and sectarian by some of those who display it? - yes
the same applies to the UJ and the tricolour.
I would love to see more Saltires at Celtic Park and Ibrox but I dont see it happening quickly. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:45 am Post subject: Re: j |
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| Totally agree with that Rinty. I don't know if I'm imagining it, but there do seem to be an increasing number of Saltires at Ibrox these days. Not many, but more than there used to be. |
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trueblue
3 Strikes - Banned!
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:58 am Post subject: Re: j |
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| Rinty wrote: | | Quote: | | red hand of ulster applies also then everyone? |
Why shouldn't it? It was the symbol of Ulster before it ever became the symbol of loyalism. My familys roots are in Ulster and we have a red hand on our family crest, its been there from before Northern Ireland ever existed.
As rfb says, you can see red hands in flags and banners in the Celtic support at almost any match.
But the red hand, like the UJ, the tri-colour or any other symbol CAN be sectarian just as they can equally be just flags.
I was at a pre-season match at Fulham in July. A fulham fan sitting near the segregation with the Celtic fans unfurled a UJ with the word "fulham" across it. Some of the Celtic fans reacted badly and I could see the confusion on the poor guys face. To him, and to many English fans, your teams name across a UJ is just a club flag. Eventually, thanks to a Celtic fan sitting nearby who explained to the fulham fan why he was being screamed at, he took his flag down to a cheer from the Celtic support. From this you can see two clear trains of thought.
1. The fulham fan did not have a UJ as an anti-irish, pro-british or any other sectarian statement so therefore flying his flag was not sectarian.
2. The Celtic fans were offended by the flag so therefore, to them, the showing of the flag, not the sentiment behind who is showing it, is sectarian.
Should those Celtic fans then have a consistent position and remove Irish flags based on whether people see them as offensive rather than what the intention is? Or should they say we are quite right to fly any flag we want and support other supporters doing the same?
Personally I think flags are used to identify what faction the supporters are from so therefore are part of the sectarian problem we have in Scotland.
In Manchester and Liverpool UJs and tricolours are displayed by fans of Liverpool, Everton, Man City, and Man U. They also have many catholic schools. Why is there no sectarian division in the way there is here?
In summary?
Red Hand offensive and sectarian? NO
Is it intended to be offensive and sectarian by some of those who display it? - yes
the same applies to the UJ and the tricolour.
I would love to see more Saltires at Celtic Park and Ibrox but I dont see it happening quickly. |
i agree entirely apart from celtic fans being offended by a fulham fan flyinga uj with fulham written on it. that should nit in anyway be offensive or secterian but soem celtic fans have a certain mindset where they are offended by all things british no matter the circumstances (apart fom the benfits system of course).
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: j |
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| trueblue wrote: | | i agree entirely apart from celtic fans being offended by a fulham fan flyinga uj with fulham written on it. that should nit in anyway be offensive or secterian but soem celtic fans have a certain mindset where they are offended by all things british no matter the circumstances (apart fom the benfits system of course). |
It's not just Celtic Fans trueblue. In fact it's probably quite different. Most Celtic fans are anti the UJ because of what's going on in Ireland under the UJ. There are many from other clubs who find the UJ offensive because of what went on and goes on in Scotland under the UJ. If anyone flew a UJ at Easter Road, I would find it offensive. |
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trueblue
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: j |
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| SLG wrote: | | trueblue wrote: | | i agree entirely apart from celtic fans being offended by a fulham fan flyinga uj with fulham written on it. that should nit in anyway be offensive or secterian but soem celtic fans have a certain mindset where they are offended by all things british no matter the circumstances (apart fom the benfits system of course). |
It's not just Celtic Fans trueblue. In fact it's probably quite different. Most Celtic fans are anti the UJ because of what's going on in Ireland under the UJ. There are many from other clubs who find the UJ offensive because of what went on and goes on in Scotland under the UJ. If anyone flew a UJ at Easter Road, I would find it offensive. |
so if i was to find the flying of the tricolour offensive because of what the irish have done to the british down the years is that secterian?
i think so.
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: j |
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| trueblue wrote: | so if i was to find the flying of the tricolour offensive because of what the irish have done to the british down the years is that secterian?
i think so. |
Do you find the Irish tricolour offensive? |
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trueblue
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: j |
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| SLG wrote: | | trueblue wrote: | so if i was to find the flying of the tricolour offensive because of what the irish have done to the british down the years is that secterian?
i think so. |
Do you find the Irish tricolour offensive? |
you finding the uj offensive is ok?
someone finding the tricolor offensive is ok?
are both acts secterian or not?
just answer the question.
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: j |
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I and others find the UJ offensive. If others find the Irish tricolour offensive, then fair enough. I'm pretty sure that both are flown with a sectarian purpose by some.
Do you find the Irish tricolour offensive? |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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I find both offensive to a certain degree - not the flags themselves - but what they represent.
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trueblue
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: j |
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| SLG wrote: | I and others find the UJ offensive. If others find the Irish tricolour offensive, then fair enough. I'm pretty sure that both are flown with a sectarian purpose by some.
Do you find the Irish tricolour offensive? |
many find the union jack offfensive.
many find the tricolour offensive.
some people just like to be offended.
i persoanlly do not care what flags someone flys. i have never been offended by any of them. i merely chuckle away to myself listening to the reasons why someone does or does not fly a particular flag.
being scottish/british i'am more likely to fly a saltire or uj. certainly would not be as pretentious/simplistic as to fly a flag that i had little or no connection with, eg. if a had a french grandparent. i was born and brought up in the uk. i'am scottish/british, not french.
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
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Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:04 pm Post subject: c |
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| Quote: | | that should nit in anyway be offensive or secterian but soem celtic fans have a certain mindset where they are offended by all things british no matter the circumstances (apart fom the benfits system of course). |
Some Celtic fans who are also irish, of irish origin and/or republican will find the union jack an offensive symbol of 800 hundred years of brutal rule in Ireland.
The benefits system is funded by the British people including Celtic supporters and is not some sort of bonus of being british.
Some Rangers fans are offended by all things Irish, at least if not more than your claims about Celtic supporters.
Also, true blue, as i said earlier, much of the british symbolism used by Rangers fans is intended to offend so it shouldn't be a surprise if it did. |
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parkhead_rfb
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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and what offends you about the irish flag rs?
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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RBK
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 03 Oct 2005
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Location: Ulster
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: c |
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Would Huguenots be justified in hating the French, and in finding the French flag offensive.
Would they be justified in hating the Papal flag. The Serbs too might have reason to object to this flag.
How about the Battleflag. Are people right to hate this flag. |
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parkhead_rfb
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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admin can this idiot be banned immediately? that statement is a reference to child abuse and totally unacceptable on this board in my opinion.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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