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Luke P
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 218
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 Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | Don't give us that crap. Even if his antecedents were Welsh, Wallace was Scottish. Maybe you're one of those people who believe where your great grandfather was born is more important than where you were born?
Tell us, what nationality was Edward I of England? How about Robert I of Scots? |
No, I don't. It was a deliberately inflammatory remark, but one worth making because the truth is that Wallace was a BRIT, like all of us. The "us and them", "we're so different" attitude is what I find to be crap...
(Edward was also a Brit, as was Robert de Brus - both probably of Norman extraction)
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"Hath He not made us all in one island, compassed with one sea and of itself by nature indivisible?" James VI/I |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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We are all Brits in the sense that these are the British Isles named after the Roman general Britanicus.
You haven't made any point and know little or nothing about this period of history.
Wallace as a man of his times was an extraordinary individual, leader of men and appointed Guardian of Scotland by the Scottish parliament.
What you profess to know about Scottish history is inaccurate and I don't think you are a 'nationalist'.
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth!
Last edited by Stevie on Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:02 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Luke P wrote: | | Wallace was a BRIT |
Not according to William Wallace, he wasn't. He clearly identified himself as Scottish. There could be a reasonable case made out for calling Wallace a murdering thug. But if he was, he was a Scottish murdering thug. Wallace denied Edward the First of England's charge of treason against him on the grounds that Scotland was distinct from England and he had never owed allegiance to the English king.
The Caribbean Islands include islands with very different cultures. Although a minority of these islands come together as the "West Indies" so far as playing cricket is concerned, even that minority of the Caribbean Islands includes several sovereign, independent states. It is silly to try to pretend, of those of us who live in the islands of the North Atlantic Archipelago, that "we are all British", in an all-incorporating sort of way, merely because we live in a group of islands usually referred to as "the British Isles". Yes, there is something of a case for "Britishness", but the mere accident of geography doesn't make that case.
In any case, even if there is some sort of case for "Britishness", that still doesn't refute the case for independence for Scotland. Countries with some things in common can be independent of each other and remain good neighbours. Canada and the USA were both "British", they are both predominantly English speaking, yet nobody finds it odd that what Canadians send to Washington DC is an ambassador, not members of congress or senators.
The kind of all-incorporating "Britishness"that Luke P is trying to argue for has NEVER existed. Yes, various monarchs and various politicians would have liked it to exist, but, statement of fact, they never at any time got their wish. In pursuing their own interests, the lawyers of Edinburgh, and the ministers of the kirk, were powerful enough to ensure that the Union of 1707, which established the United Kingdom, specifically ruled out that kind of completely incorporating Britishness.
The unifying factors which made the case for a United Kingdom in the past were (1) a Protestant alliance against the Catholic threat from France and Spain, (2) the prevention of cross-border raiding, and (3) Scottish access to the Empire.
All of these factors are long gone. There is no Catholic threat from France and Spain, cross-border raiding by neighbouring European countries is a thing of the past, and the British Empire is a distant memory.
In these circumstances, anybody arguing against independence for Scotland has to do better than "We're all BRITS". |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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The British Isles, Europe, the West, the world, the solar system, the Milky Way, the universe.
Brits, Europeans, Westerners, citizens of the world, citizens of the solar system, galactic citizens.
Yes, but Scots first and foremost.
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth! |
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Morph
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Posts: 916
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Also William Wallace couldn't be a Brit. He couldnt be a Brit even if he wanted to be the idea of British and Great Britain wasnt around until 1707 and the Act of Union.
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"An oppressive government is to be more feared than a tiger" |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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It's a silly nonsense and Luke P knows it. He is currently laughing at people who are responding to his chancey Brit Nat jibe.
Morph has a point though.
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth! |
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