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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2604
Location: SW Scotland
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 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject: n |
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| Quote: | | This thread has gone way off at a tangent. I can't see how the last few posts have got anything to do with 'Scots Abroad'! |
It is rfb's fault. If he dares criticise the british or scots we see the thread develop into a debate on Ireland and the IRA. If only he would keep his mouth shut then all of these true brits/scots would not be compelled to rail against his opinion. Shocking!
IT is impossible for a thread that involves rfb criticising scots to end up in anything other than an attack on rfb and calls for him to justify his position on Ireland.
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agentmancuso
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2016
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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I find it difficult to make smalltalk with someone who believes that the indiscriminate murder of civilians is a reasonable political option. But I'll try my hardest. 
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Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2604
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Then dont get involved in the thread, no-one is asking you to make small talk! |
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agentmancuso
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2016
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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I can't help it, I'm just naturally gregarious.
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Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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you will find the british sectioned a part of a country off to ensure a majority felt that way, that is not democracy in any sense of the word.
the last point was that the court would not accept that as it wouldnt be a war situation, they clearly seen the six counties as such. republican prisoners were also given political status when caught by british forces (despite thatchers best efforts).
by the way who gave the un authority? i dont remember voting for them to have any power?
by the un's own standards the iraq war is illegal yet they do nothing, why should i have faith in the stance of an organisation which turns a blind eye to its own rules.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1423
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | you will find the british sectioned a part of a country off to ensure a majority felt that way, that is not democracy in any sense of the word. |
Well it is, the majority wanted to remain British and they got their own way. It's a pretty sly way of using democracy but it is democracy nontheless.
| Quote: | | the last point was that the court would not accept that as it wouldnt be a war situation, they clearly seen the six counties as such. republican prisoners were also given political status when caught by british forces (despite thatchers best efforts). |
But that still doesn't prove your assertion that the IRA are/where a legitimate army. You can declare war on obesity, you can declare war on terror, you can declare war on MRSA. You claimed that the IRA where a legitimate army. They are not. States are the only 'things' with a right to have an army, that is a fact of International Politics. As I said, had the Irish Free State or Irish Republic upon it's creation bought the IRA 'in house' then fine, it would by a legitimate army. This never happened.
It is nothing more than an voluntary organisation to all extent and purpose. Having a gun and a Army Council does not = legitimate army Parkie!
As I said, by all means claim it was a Legitimate Cause though!
| Quote: | by the way who gave the un authority? i dont remember voting for them to have any power?
by the un's own standards the iraq war is illegal yet they do nothing, why should i have faith in the stance of an organisation which turns a blind eye to its own rules. |
Who's asked you to have faith in it? The Un is a symbol of International Relations. Some times it works often it doesn't. It's pure and simple politics at work on a grand scale. It was agreed to be established by the sovereign states after WW2. You don't get to vote for a lot of things Parkie. It's life. Doesn't make it illegitimate either though. We vote for the government they then make decisions. Representative Democracy at work |
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George
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 622
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Let me bring the thread back to it's origins and again post the questions that RFB declined to answer.
| George wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: | | see this is the kind of "scottishness" that I hate, |
The behaviour appalls me too, I think every poster hitherto agrees. However this yobbery is not 'Scottishness' as you put it, it is just yobbery the fact that these drunks happen to be wearing a kilt is irrellevant. Of course on the practical side it does make it easier to 'moon' than having to drop your trousers......but no, it isn't 'Scottishness'.
Now, if the wearing of the kilt in this informal fashion is what you mean by 'Scottishness' then that is an entirely different point. Feel free to have a go at this fashion faux pas...........but I would have to disagree, I am comfortable with the informality.
Just an aside, and making no particular point, was there not a 'kiltie' amongst the fans in the famous pitch invasion in Lisbon 67?
| parkhead_rfb wrote: |
........the tartan army are also very guilty of this. |
It wouldn't surprise me........I get equally embarassed and annoyed by their doe a deer rendition.
| parkhead_rfb wrote: |
...their sum idea of being scottish is to run around in a tartan skirt, wich really has nothing much to do with scottish history and flash their arses and expect locals to love them for it. |
This is quite a subjective generalisation, and you're equating bad behaviour coupled with traditional attire with 'being scottish'. Also why the use of the term 'skirt' to refer to the kilt?
| parkhead_rfb wrote: |
...these c***s should be horse whipped. |
OK, but where do you stop? Do we horsewhip anyone engaging in boorish behaviour...or just those who's attire may suggest some kind of national connection? |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4431
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | by the way who gave the un authority? i dont remember voting for them to have any power? |
Well you did. A British government signed up to the UN Charter and so forth on your behalf, the presently elected British government supports the United Nations too.
| Quote: | | by the un's own standards the iraq war is illegal yet they do nothing, why should i have faith in the stance of an organisation which turns a blind eye to its own rules. |
Of course, it shows why I am an internationalist - the total inability of multistate organisations to function effectively.
Although I'd disagree that the war in Iraq was illegal.
| Cymro wrote: | | Well it is, the majority wanted to remain British and they got their own way. It's a pretty sly way of using democracy but it is democracy nontheless. |
And herein lies the problem in ideals of 'democratic secession' - which is what I've just been talking about on another thread.
Essentially, democracy is based upon equality - that is, individual equality. You cannot deny one individual secession rights while granting them to a certain group of other individuals.
If you did, I'd go and rob the Post Office and then declare myself an independent state. Which would be fun.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean用ower over people, power to the State.' |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4431
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The behaviour appalls me too, I think every poster hitherto agrees. However this yobbery is not 'Scottishness' as you put it, it is just yobbery the fact that these drunks happen to be wearing a kilt is irrellevant. Of course on the practical side it does make it easier to 'moon' than having to drop your trousers......but no, it isn't 'Scottishness'. |
It certainly is. Britain is the only place on earth where we behave in this sort of way and treat alcohol in a certain manner. It's one of the most British things I can imagine, and obviously therefore very Scottish.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean用ower over people, power to the State.' |
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1423
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Quote: | Cymro wrote:
Well it is, the majority wanted to remain British and they got their own way. It's a pretty sly way of using democracy but it is democracy nontheless. |
And herein lies the problem in ideals of 'democratic secession' - which is what I've just been talking about on another thread.
Essentially, democracy is based upon equality - that is, individual equality. You cannot deny one individual secession rights while granting them to a certain group of other individuals.
If you did, I'd go and rob the Post Office and then declare myself an independent state. Which would be fun. |
It was sly though in that the British Government wouldn't have allowed it be to used to other way round. If say County Cork was overwhelmingly Pro Indepedence while the rest of the island was overwhelmingly British and Unionist they wouldn't have allowed Cork to go its own way if that is what they wanted. I realise this is an unlikely scenario anyway but the case still stands. It was a sly way by the British state of keeping a presence on the island which allowed them to meddle in politicis of the island. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4431
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | It was sly though in that the British Government wouldn't have allowed it be to used to other way round. If say County Cork was overwhelmingly Pro Indepedence while the rest of the island was overwhelmingly British and Unionist they wouldn't have allowed Cork to go its own way if that is what they wanted. I realise this is an unlikely scenario anyway but the case still stands. It was a sly way by the British state of keeping a presence on the island which allowed them to meddle in politicis of the island. |
I suppose. Personally I have some sympathy with historic Irish nationalism - after all, the UK government did mistreat them, and the Catholics, to some extent.
In the modern context, it wouldn't be in the least bit tolerable to me.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean用ower over people, power to the State.' |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:17 am Post subject: |
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so aventanian you dont think its illegal to invade a country based on weapons which didnt exist?
i am sure you also find it a mere coincidence iraq is full of oil as well
_________________
"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4431
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | so aventanian you dont think its illegal to invade a country based on weapons which didnt exist? |
Nope, on the basis of Lord Goldsmith's advice to the government which did not in the least hinge on there being weapons of mass destruction.
Iraq was in material breach of its ceasefire conditions as stated in Resolution 1441 of Nov 2002, in which Iraq was given "a final opportunity to comply" in very, very clear terms. It was therefore a question of previous resolution on force in Iraq being reignited by continued breach.
I think it showed contempt for the UN and a second resolution would've been desirable; but my own objections do not make it illegal by a long shot. International law is the minimal standard of conduct for states, not something which can be trotted out by the anti-war groups when they don't like something.
| Quote: | | i am sure you also find it a mere coincidence iraq is full of oil as well |
And how many billions of pounds has the Iraq War cost the coalition forces?
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean用ower over people, power to the State.' |
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Corby Boy
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 421
Location: South of Hadrian's Wall
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Rinty.
I give up. Ireland now Iraq. I suppose both do involve Scots and they are abroad! |
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George
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 622
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Quote: | | The behaviour appalls me too, I think every poster hitherto agrees. However this yobbery is not 'Scottishness' as you put it, it is just yobbery the fact that these drunks happen to be wearing a kilt is irrellevant. Of course on the practical side it does make it easier to 'moon' than having to drop your trousers......but no, it isn't 'Scottishness'. |
It certainly is. Britain is the only place on earth where we behave in this sort of way and treat alcohol in a certain manner. It's one of the most British things I can imagine, and obviously therefore very Scottish. |
Twaddle, it is not 'Scottishness'.......your attempts to justify it as such are laughable...........or as 'mancuso' might say; utterly prepostrous.
Anyway, my participation in this thread has been deliberately brief. I note that RFB is selective in the posts he chooses to respond to. Perhaps Rinty might care to offer an opinion as to why that might be, after all I don't think that the questions that I asked were unreasonable. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4431
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| George wrote: | | Twaddle, it is not 'Scottishness'.......your attempts to justify it as such are laughable...........or as 'mancuso' might say; utterly prepostrous. |
I realise that this is somewhat akin to arguing the about the beginning of evil with a religious fundamentalist, but quite simply you are wrong.
Our drinking culture and associated activities are very particular to these islands - I've travelled the world an never encountered anything comparable. It is also very much associated with these islands in the minds of outsiders.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean用ower over people, power to the State.' |
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Jimbo
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Aventinian.
There IS a drink culture that is peculiar to this country. When abroad, people I have visited go out for a meal and a drink to socialise. Here the mindset seems to be to go out and drink with the purpose of getting pissed.
Did you know that a large number of the murders in this country are drunken breaches of the peace that have got out of hand.
How many times have any of us been in the company of, or overheard someone bragging how much alcohol they and their friends consumed the previous night as though this were the mark of a man. In other countries children are brought up with alcohol (wine mostly) as a way of life, served to them in small doses with a meal and as adults, on the whole, they tend not to abuse it.
I think a lot of Scotland's drink problems go back to the fifties when pubs closed at 9.30 and was a case of getting as much down your neck as you could before closing time.
Something really needs to be done to re-educate people here about how it's possible to enjoy oneself without having to consume large amounts of alcohol and think this is what having a good time is all about. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4431
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| Jimbo wrote: | | I think a lot of Scotland's drink problems go back to the fifties when pubs closed at 9.30 and was a case of getting as much down your neck as you could before closing time. |
Ah yes, the days before the dancing had an attached bar.
There's certainly something in that. I can't help notice a lot of people doing that even when pubs are kicking out at 12. Personally I think 1 o'clock is a good pub closing time; but a lot of licensing boards in Scotland don't like pubs opening that late.
| Quote: | | Something really needs to be done to re-educate people here about how it's possible to enjoy oneself without having to consume large amounts of alcohol and think this is what having a good time is all about. |
Make the place a bit less miserable, particularly in the winter and have some more non-alcohol related events. Bands in bandstands, that sort of thing. Either that or make pubs more family friendly.
I remember reading George Orwell's essay, the Moon Under the Water, on his ideal public house - and one of the points made was:
"On summer evenings there are family parties, and you sit under the plane trees having beer or draught cider to the tune of delighted squeals from children going down the chute. The prams with the younger children are parked near the gate.
Many as are the virtues of the Moon Under Water I think that the garden is its best feature, because it allows whole families to go there instead of Mum having to stay at home and mind the baby while Dad goes out alone.
And though, strictly speaking, they are only allowed in the garden, the children tend to seep into the pub and even to fetch drinks for their parents. This, I believe, is against the law, but it is a law that deserves to be broken, for it is the puritanical nonsense of excluding children-and therefore to some extent, women-from pubs that has turned these places into mere boozing-shops instead of the family gathering-places that they ought to be."
That said, I like my boozing-shops... but equally I dislike drunks. Well, except the ones who I call my friends.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean用ower over people, power to the State.' |
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George
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 622
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | George wrote: | | Twaddle, it is not 'Scottishness'.......your attempts to justify it as such are laughable...........or as 'mancuso' might say; utterly prepostrous. |
I realise that this is somewhat akin to arguing the about the beginning of evil with a religious fundamentalist, but quite simply you are wrong.
Our drinking culture and associated activities are very particular to these islands - I've travelled the world an never encountered anything comparable. It is also very much associated with these islands in the minds of outsiders. |
Well, whenever you get the urge to show your 'Scottishness' I hope I'm not around. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4431
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| George wrote: | | =Well, whenever you get the urge to show your 'Scottishness' I hope I'm not around. |
Yes, I personally drink like a fish. When I'm down the pub, I will put quite a few pints away and never be without a drink in my hand. And yes, I consider that a very Scottish/British characteristic. As does every foreigner I've ever taken down the pub.
Like I say, national identity includes all the bad characteristics as well as the good. Of course, to you the nation is some sort of pseudodeity, so I'm not surprised you can't recognise this.
My culture is, however, entirely harmless. So why you'd not wish to be around it is beyond me.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean用ower over people, power to the State.' |
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