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RBK
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 260
Location: Ulster
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 Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | what if it were only two thirds of the south east though should we split scotland up to appease that minority? what if scottish nationalists then went on to be discriminated against in this partitioned part of scotland? |
Wouldn't take you to be a Sherlock Holmes to see where this thread is leading to. But then parkhead seems to be obsessed with Ulster and 'discrimination' and 'the crying game'.
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, so there is a referendum on independence. The majority want to become independent. All the regions have a majority except Dumfries & Galloway. The UK government decides that the rest of Scotland can become independent except D&G which will remain part of the rump UK.
I can see the first part could happen. But,
1. I can't see the British government wanting to retain any of Scotland. Despite what you might think, they have learnt some lessons from NI. There is no oil in the SW and little of any strategic importance.
2. I'm absolutely sure that the vast majority of Unionists in D&G despite having voted against becoming independent would accept the decision made throughout Scotland as a whole. Maybe the key difference between Scotland and Ireland is that the Unionists in Scotland still see themselves as Scottish as well as British. I think you will struggle to find any Scot who denies that they are in some way Scottish. So it would be unfeasable for D&G to become English, or British without the rest of Scotland and even the majority of Unionist recognise this. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| kalashnikov wrote: | | Some people refer to other Scots as “us”, well people Tom Hunter and Sean Connery are Scottish and they have nothing in common with the likes of myself. I have little time for tartan tory types who think that when we “break with the English” all problems will be solved, the only way to smash the imperialist British Empire is through class unity with our English and Welsh brothers and sisters. |
Of course I've never met you, but I've met people from all different backgrounds/classes/regions/political views in Scotland. I've also met people from around the world (including England & Wales) who come from a similar background to myself. I would think that I have more in common with those Scots who have a common cultural reference to myself than those from the same class (remember I'm not working class because I own property) from different countries.
I agree when you say that breaking with the English will not solve our problems though. But, we will be in a position to at least start making some changes. You keep waiting for the English to rise if you want, but you'll be waiting a long long time. In the meantime, Westminster will never change in any significant way.
Btw you seem to be very keen on our close relationship between workers in England and Wales. What about the borthers in Eire? Surely they can benefit from London rule after the workers rise up as well, no? |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: eh? |
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| Rinty wrote: | | Quote: | | the SNP who are at heart a Socialist party. |
In what way are the SSP "at heart" socialist? Is that in a sort of capitalist sort of socialist? Is it the privatised public service economy of the EU sort of socialist? The low wages of the Celtic tiger? The Queen as head of state? Jim Mathers business tax cuts? |
The SNP is not a socialist party. It is a social democratic party. The SNP does not believe in further privatisation and PFI etc but they do not believe in the wholesale re-nationalisation of industry. They believe in the minimum wage though they wouldn't set it as high as the SSP would. They do believe in state regulated free enterprise. Scandinavian rather than Irish model I suppose.
As for the Queen, you know fine well that almost all members of the SNP including the leadership are republicans and that if the SNP remained in power after independence, there would be a referendum on the monarchy and they would take a republican stance. |
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trueblue
3 Strikes - Banned!
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 260
Location: caravan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: eh? |
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| SLG wrote: | | Rinty wrote: | | Quote: | | the SNP who are at heart a Socialist party. |
In what way are the SSP "at heart" socialist? Is that in a sort of capitalist sort of socialist? Is it the privatised public service economy of the EU sort of socialist? The low wages of the Celtic tiger? The Queen as head of state? Jim Mathers business tax cuts? |
The SNP is not a socialist party. It is a social democratic party. The SNP does not believe in further privatisation and PFI etc but they do not believe in the wholesale re-nationalisation of industry. They believe in the minimum wage though they wouldn't set it as high as the SSP would. They do believe in state regulated free enterprise. Scandinavian rather than Irish model I suppose.
As for the Queen, you know fine well that almost all members of the SNP including the leadership are republicans and that if the SNP remained in power after independence, there would be a referendum on the monarchy and they would take a republican stance. |
aye but it hasnae happened.
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**sig. edited by admin |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2597
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:45 am Post subject: h |
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| Quote: | | The SNP is not a socialist party. |
Yes, totally agree.
| Quote: | | The SNP does not believe in further privatisation and PFI etc but they do not believe in the wholesale re-nationalisation of industry. |
How would they stop further privatisation while being signed up to GATTS and being a member of the EU?
| Quote: | | They believe in the minimum wage though they wouldn't set it as high as the SSP would. |
Why not? The SSP policy is to set it a level called for by European decency thraesholds and demands from Scottish trade union members. The SSP publish their demands for a minimum wage of £7.32 per hour at the 2003 Scottish elections. What rate do the SNP favour and what arguments do they have seetting the minimum decent wage for Scottish workers at less than £300 per week? Its virtually impossible for a family to live on that these days.
| Quote: | | they do believe in state regulated free enterprise. Scandinavian rather than Irish model I suppose. |
They often cite Norway as an example but many of the good parts about Norways economy are impossible in the EU. Do the SNP believe in a publicly owned Oil Industry?
| Quote: | | As for the Queen, you know fine well that almost all members of the SNP including the leadership are republicans and that if the SNP remained in power after independence, there would be a referendum on the monarchy and they would take a republican stance. |
I do not think this is the position. IF the SNP and their leadership did have such beliefs, why would they not have it as policy? From the outside looking in it is clear the SNP are very divided on this issue or they would clear it up now. The SNP position IS for an independent Scotland to have the queen as head of state, they might have an election after that but they clearly have no problem with accepting the monarchy.
Whats make you so sure that the SNP would take a republican stance when they refuse to do so at the moment? If its political expediency then the same situation could come up then.
You really cant attempt to paint the SNPs position on the monarchy as some sort of trivial matter that they have reached a concensus in the party on. The only concensus in the SNP about the monarchy is one of "dont mention the war"! |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Rinty wrote: | | How would they stop further privatisation while being signed up to GATTS and being a member of the EU? |
That depends on how strictly these organisations try to force their agenda. If the government is being forced to privatise services against it's will, then IMO we have to leave these organisations. I don't believe this to be the case though.
| Rinty wrote: | | Why not? The SSP policy is to set it a level called for by European decency thraesholds and demands from Scottish trade union members. The SSP publish their demands for a minimum wage of £7.32 per hour at the 2003 Scottish elections. What rate do the SNP favour and what arguments do they have seetting the minimum decent wage for Scottish workers at less than £300 per week? Its virtually impossible for a family to live on that these days. |
I would be happy with this. And I'm sure that if there was a SNP/SSP coalition that this would be an area on which agreement could be reached. However as a party the SNP are trying to court business leaders who are against a minimum wage at that level. They deem that without the backing of a significant section of business leaders, they will continue to find it difficult to gain power.
| Rinty wrote: | | They often cite Norway as an example but many of the good parts about Norways economy are impossible in the EU. Do the SNP believe in a publicly owned Oil Industry? |
Well I'm not that big a fan of the EU myself and I can see Scotland stepping back from the EU after independence. Of course the SNP policy at the moment is to remain in the EU and the SNP are not be planning to re-nationalise the oil industry. Though they would have a lot more control over it.
The other Scandinavian countries that are within the EU seem to be able to provide high public spending, good public services etc. At the very least, I think under the present SNP policy, Scotland can take huge leaps forward compared to the present form of Labour/Tory government we have in the UK. At which point we would be in a position to then decide what direction we want to take the country. The SNP (as they exist now) are not forever - just till independence.
| Rinty wrote: | I do not think this is the position. IF the SNP and their leadership did have such beliefs, why would they not have it as policy? From the outside looking in it is clear the SNP are very divided on this issue or they would clear it up now. The SNP position IS for an independent Scotland to have the queen as head of state, they might have an election after that but they clearly have no problem with accepting the monarchy.
Whats make you so sure that the SNP would take a republican stance when they refuse to do so at the moment? If its political expediency then the same situation could come up then.
You really cant attempt to paint the SNPs position on the monarchy as some sort of trivial matter that they have reached a concensus in the party on. The only concensus in the SNP about the monarchy is one of "dont mention the war"! |
They do not have it as a policy because of the assumption that there are more SNP voters who would not vote SNP if they took on a republican policy than those who don't vote SNP because of a monarchist policy. I personally doubt this to be the case, but I don't think they lose too many voters over it.
I find myself to be very representative on this matter. I'm a republican through and through. I find the monarchy to be offensive to my democratic beliefs. Yet I'm a member of the SNP. Britain will not become a republic in my lifetime yet I'm positive that Scotland will become a republic within two or three terms of independence. On this matter I'm willing to be practical rather than ideological.
As for being sure that the SNP would take on a republican position after independence. I expect they will through political necessity, but I really don't care what position they take. After independence we will have elections. At that point I don't need to support the SNP anymore, I can vote for a party with those polices that I agree with. If the SNP don't start making sounds in favour of republicanism then I don't have to vote for them. |
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