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VLK

What are your opinions? What country is the most fascist country in Europe at the moment? In my opinion, there is not a shadow of doubt that it is Russia. Funnily though, Russia accuses Estonia of being a fascist country because Estonia wants to remove war-memorials into the war-cemetary.

As you may have noticed, this has caused a very major diplomatic crisis between Estonia and Russia. This episode is the worst kind of example of a superiority-complex that some countries still have.

Russia accuses Estonia of the rise of fascism in their country but Russia itself is the most fascist country one can think of.

LAz · Nationalist Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 113

agentmancuso · Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject:

Neo-Fascist Russia continues illegal electronic attacks on Estonia.

Hat tip to Cicero
_________________
Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
Hayek

VLK · Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject:

LAz · Nationalist Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 113

RFM · Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject:

Who are you supposed to be VLK, Condoleeza Rice?
For God's sake give it a break already with your cold war Russian fascist paranoia.
You want to see fascism, come take a look at America.

agentmancuso · Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 10:34 am Post subject:

More cheery authoritarianism from Putin via Cicero again:

Rinty · Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject:

Russia is without doubt an authoritarian country with a brutal leadership. However, they follow the same line as our own government, using anti-terror rhetoric to justify their actions.

Authoritarian regimes throughout history are of many different outlooks and colours, quite literally right left and centre. I dont see that this makes russia facist in anyway.

RFM · Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject:

Is Cicero trying to replace Tony Blair as the next lapdog for George Bush and Company?
The cold war ended nearly two decades ago; get over it and get a life.

agentmancuso · Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 5:48 pm Post subject:

RFM · Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject:

If Cicero wanted to be half way honest about terrible governments and tyranny he might consider the history of England.

I suppose anybody on a weekend package tour of the Baltics could be said to have "spent some time there" but it would hardly qualify one for the histronics and ranting that you and Cicero regard as an intellectual substitute for fact.

Estonia, actually known as Estland (german) one of those funny little countries that seems to have never been mentioned in the history books by that name until 1917, when it sprang onto the world stage with a ready made back-dated history. Oh those terrible Russians!

agentmancuso · Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject:

I repeat:

The Soviet tyranny was as vile a regime as has ever existed- and apologists for this monstrous and bloody regime are the moral equals of Nazi apologists.
_________________
Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
Hayek

Rinty · Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: n

LAz · Nationalist Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 113

Rinty · Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 8:27 pm Post subject:

nor is it socialist

RFM · Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 1:55 am Post subject:

I think you people are so hung up on vilifying Russia, you seem to have forgotten a little recent history.

Russia is no longer the Soviet Socialist Union of Republics, in fact it has not been since 1989. Second, Russia does not equal Communism or Socialism since 1989. Everybody in the world except Cicero and Agentmancuso seems to know that.

But the old bitter causes die hard, if at all. What a way to live.

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 925

LAz wrote

> Croatia is by far the most fascist country in Europe.

It certainly has an extremely bad record of past and present day fascism

It's hard to say which country in Europe is the "most fascist". Since I'm not a racist, I don't believe that some races are just inherently more fascist than others, I think fascism is a product of circumstances. Some circumstances change, while others may be more permanent. Things like the level of unemployment etc change, while in the case of Estonia, for instance, being right next door to Russia is a permanent circumstance.

Estonia has a very large Russian-speaking minority, I think it's about thirty five percent of the population, and the Estonian government has denied full citzenship rights, voting rights, etc to this large minority. The Russian-speaking minority is mostly working class. If you are born into the Russian minority, then even if you make yourself fluent in Estonian, if your name sounds Russian your chances of getting a job as a civil servant, teacher, etc etc are reduced. While some might see this as an understandable reaction to a previous history of Russian domination, it is a stupid policy towards such a large section of your own population, especially when you've got Russia itself taking an interest in their welfare. It is a fact that during the Second World War many Estonian Nationalists were enthusiastic collaborators with the Nazis, and the removal of war memorials has to be seen in that context. Of course the Russian minority in Estonia objected, and of course Big Brother in the Kremlin backed their protests. Yes, there are fascists in positions of power in Russia. But also in Estonia. The fact that fascists can fall out with each other doesn't make them any less fascist. In the early years of their regimes, Mussolini and Hitler nearly went to war with each other.

Cicero · Finding Ma' Way Joined: 18 May 2007 Posts: 14

I see agrentmancuso has quoted approvingly a few things from my blog, and came to have a look at the comments.

Firstly, Estonia is not Estland- that is the German and Swedish name of the country, in Estonian (a language related to Finnish) it is Eesti. The Russian population came as colonialists in the 1940s and 1950s to replace the vanished Estonians, and some still have this colonial mind set. Nevertheless, Russians and Estonians have not clashed too much, and slowly (too slowly for some Estonians) the communities have been integrating. However the riots that the Russian Embassy in Tallinn were directly involved in, have weakened trust and hardened positions.

I am not an occasional weekender in Tallinn, I started a PhD at Edinburgh on the area, and now as a banker I have several transactions underway related to the Baltic, and Estonia in particular. I have also worked on deals across Central and Eastern Europe, including Russia.

As far as whether Russia is a Fascist state or not is concerned, well in the sense of have an explicitly fascist Party in charge, then no, it is not. However a few things for the body of kirk to consider:

There are no free and fair elections in Russia. The Press and all media are controlled by the state. Opponents of the regime are routinely killed. A youth group, Nashi, harrass and threaten any individual corporate or country that they perceive is a challenge to Vladimir Putin. Freedom House Rate Russia as "Not Free".

Life, away from the gltiz of modern Moscow is pretty awful: male life expectancy is 54, and is falling as a huge AIDS epidemic adds to the tolls of drinking, smoking, poor diet and dreadful welfare. Although, the nominal GDP numbers have shot up, on the back of rising oil, gas and commodity prices, the real economy is in a pretty terrible state, with a truly shocking disparity of wealth: you can find real poverty alongside the new rich.

I do not intend to reherse the history of Estonia, you can find it youself in such places as Wiki, but the destruction that the USSR unleashed on the Baltic is undeniable- over a third of the population was shot or exiled during the course of the Soviet occcupation. Estonians (and Latvians, Lithuanians) were denied basic human rights, and although there were many problems during the inter-war period, Estonia was richer than Norway, and the occupation drastically impoverished them. Yet only 17 years later, Estonia now is a dynamic and open society, essentially Nordic like their Finnish neighbours, and the country is considered one of the most pollitically and economically free in the whole world.

Although Soviet Socialism has now, gone, in many ways it was a far more barbaric regime even when compared to National Socialist Germany, and the psychological scars are very obvious, especially in Russia. So if Russia is not exactly a fascist country, it is an extremely dangerous and very damaged one.

I was interviewed on the BBC about the Samara summit yesterday, and I pointed out that it is not just Estonia that has come directly under Russian attack, but Lithuania had their oil supply cut when they sold their refinery to Poland, rather than the Kremlins prefered Russian. Romania has been deeply concerned about Russian meddling in Moldova, Poland has had illegal trade sanctions made against them. Britain too has a few bones to pick: Litvinenko, the spy flights over Scotland, the theft of assets from Shell in Sakhalin and so on. Even though Germany is always courted by Russia, the rumours about Gerhard Schroder suggest outright bribes, and Angela Merkel is not inclined to trust them. So I hope that the EU are pretty blunt about Russian behaviour, and NATO should be sending some pretty clear signals too.

So, if not Fascist, Russia is a violent and unstable place under an increasingly nasty government. In this dispute, it is Russia that is in the wrong, and NATO and the EU should unhesitatingly support free Estonia in the face of Russian threats.

Jimbo · This is Ma' Life! Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 628

[quote="Cicero"]

"There are no free and fair elections in Russia. The Press and all media are controlled by the state."

A bit like here then. Surprised

"Life, away from the gltiz of modern Moscow is pretty awful: male life expectancy is 54"

A lot like here. Shocked

VLK · Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject:

Thanks Cicero! That was very enlightening. I wonder who you are if you have been interviewed by the BBC. Well, perhaps that is a secret you would like to keep.

I would add to your post that until this day not even today`s Russia has acknowledged that the Baltic states were invaded and occupied by the USSR. Russia insists on the old Soviet-interpretation that the three small countries voluntarily chose to join the USSR through elections.

There indeed were election in all three Baltic states in the summer of 1940 but all other candidates than those approved by the Soviet occupiers were denied participation in the election under various pretexts.

The new illegally elected parliaments made a formal wish to join the USSR and that wish was accepted.

This brings us to the Estonian interpretation of their new independence which is based on continuation, not declaration of new independence. It means that in the early 90`s estonia did not declare independence because they had already done so in 1918. Instead, they announced that the legal state of independence has been restored. The occupation was illegal in the first place under the Estonian constitution. Therefore, independence in 1991 was restoration of the legal status. Hence the citizenship-question. The Estonians interpreted that those Estonians who were citizens in 1940 and their descendants are citizens of Estonia. All others are foreigners.