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Rinty · Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject:

So Estonia seem as facist as anyone if people born there are after 1940 are foeigners and their citizenship is only for 'pure bred' estonians.

Anyway, wasnt this thread about Russia and not the Soviet Union?

I dont think you will find anyone here who defends the actions of the soviet union in their expansion into other countries. But surely if a russian family moved there in 1941 their descendants shouldnt be treated as foreigners?

It's a bit like saying that my family in Nothern Ireland are foreigners if a newly independent Ireland would declare a "continuation" of things as they were before the plantations or if newly independent Scotland voted to call all people who moved there after 1707 foreigners.

It is indefensible actually.

agentmancuso · Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 10:22 pm Post subject:

RFM · Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 3:13 am Post subject:

Hello Cicero,
Delightful to have the author himself to defend his opinions, but I see they are not entirely objective or without bias. In fact one could say they were paid political announcements, or just propaganda churned out for the benefit of your clients and potential customers. Certainly a long way from anything remotely objective.

The country you call Estonia was actually settled by the Germans as a part of the Hanseatic league. Before that, according to Adam of Bremen, they were little more than wandering tribes of savages. The Germans called it Estland and the new group that came to power like so many others in 1918, called it Estonia. Of course Tallinn was also another creation of 1918, for several hundred years before that it was known as Reval.

Your comparison to Norway is sadly misplaced. At least the Norwegians,indeed all of Scandanavia has never made non-citizens of its minority peoples. Estonia on the other hand revoked the citizenship of those citizens who were not citizens before 1940, or of one of the descendants. If the minorities, Russians that is, want to become citizens, first a waiting period of six years that several written examinations, all in Estonian, on among other things the Estonian constitution and citizenship laws. One is left to wonder how many Estonians might pass such a series of examinations themselves. Of course in the American south, such devices were used for over 100 years with great success to keep Black Americans from exercising their rights of citizenship
I note too that although Estonia subscribed to the European Convention against the death penalty for crimes, there seemed to be no hesitation in sentencing three young men to death for committing a robbery and murder recently. Of course the surnames of the young men betray the fact they were all Russians. One set of laws for the Estonians, another for the outsiders, human rights be damned. Whatever one might say about the Norwegians, racial bigotry is not one of their attributes.

You seem to have forgotten that it was Russia that bore the brunt of the fighting in WWII. Their military losses alone exceeded the totals of all of the allied forces. Not only was the country devastated by the Nazi war machine, while Europe had the Marshall Plan and the great financial and economic resources of America to help with their recovery. Russia was forced to recover on its own while people like General McArthur urged immediate invasion of Russia, because "we are going to have to fight them some day, so let's get them while they are weak". And recover they did, the first country to put a space craft in orbit around the moon, the first country to land a space probe on the moon and on Mars, the first country to put an astronaut around the earth. Impressive results by any measure.
And while you find the old Soviet Union morally repugnant and on a level with Nazi Germany, the English upper classes did not share that attitude at all. That is a part of history that has been carefully rewritten, but Hitler was deemed to be the man who would save the world from bolshevism. Now we have people like Cicero declaiming their moral bankruptcy.
What frightens people like Cicero about Russia today is not that the Commissars will come and take his cow away, but that Russia is starting to gain the expertise and ability to capitalize on their enormous natural resources. If the past is an indication of the future, the West has much to fear indeed. Then the fear mongers will have to come with hat in hand to the new capitalists.

Rinty · Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:19 am Post subject:

"Yes. It's nationalism."

Yes it is, but estonians wanting the right to govern themslves free of the russians isnt. How that desire manifests itself in some people in Estonia is.

Nationalism is a key part of facism along with a state approved relion, warped history and mythology as well as authoritarianism.

LAz · Nationalist Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 113

I look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism and I see no way how Russia is fascist.

Now to address points that are not related to this.

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 996

LAz wrote "most Russians in Estonia are there since world war two, but a huge percentage of them was there well before that, were not immigrants to the place".

First of all, we should be careful when referrring to "Russians" in Estonia. In some cases, that would be about as accurate as Russians referring to Scots as "English". It would be more accurate to say "Russian-speakers". Because the standard of living was higher in Estonia, immigrants (not necessarily ethnic Russians) arrived from other parts of the USSR. The language which they had in common was the dominant language of the USSR, Russian. However, VERY FEW of the Russian-speakers in Estonia today are "immigrants". The ancestors of some of them had been in Estonia for hundreds of years. Even the ones who arrived after the second world war (if they are still alive) are now old age pensioners, and it is their children or their grandchildren, born in Estonia yet deprived of equal rights by the Estonian state, who are actively protesting about the removal of memorials to those who fought against the Nazis. Yes, of course Big Brother in the Kremlin is posing as the defender of the rights of the oppressed Russian-speaking minority in Estonia. But it is the Estonian regime which has given the Kremlin the opportunity to do this, by their racist and fascist attitudes and policies. Saying this should not in any way be taken as a defence of the authoritarian regime in Moscow. But it is hypocrisy to try to paint all Russians as fascists while at the same time praising a racist regime that seeks to whitewash Estonian Nationalist collaboration with the Nazis.

RFM · Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject:

Yes David Coull, but merely saying "citizen" begs the question.
Estonia did not become a independent country until 1918; they now define "citizen" as a person who was an Estonian, whatever that means, as having acquired that status as of 1940, 22 years hence or less than one generation.

What it really seems to mean is anyone without a Russian surname. Its history includes Danes, Swedes, Finns, Germans, Slavs, and Russians. Who then is an Estonian?

Cicero · Finding Ma' Way Joined: 18 May 2007 Posts: 14

VLK- At the risk of boring people, in fact there are three documents to consider, the Estonian Constitution (which was rewritten in 1938), as you say all those who were citizens of Estonia then (and who did not leave Estonia when Hitler "called the Germans home" in 1940) and their decendents are indeed citizens of Estonia.

The second document is the Treaty of Tartu of 1920 in which Soviet Russia "voluntarily and forever" renounced all rights over Estonia- which is why the Estonians want the Russian Federation - the legal successor to the USSR- to base relations on that treaty (However the Russians moved the border in 1944 and therrefore fear territorial claims, even though Estonia has said it will renounce these potential claims in exchange for recognition of the Treaty).

The third is recent legislation which allows non Estonians who have lived in Estonia for some time and who have no other citizenship to acquire Estonian citizenship. In fact about half of the 300,000 Russian speakers are now Estonian citizens, although a number are also Russian citizens. There do remain some non citizens- the holders of the grey passports- but these are people who are unwilling to sit the (now fairly basic) citizenship test i.e. who have learned a minimal amount of Estonian and passed an citizenship test. Some Russians resent the idea of a test on principle, and the Russian Embassy has been recruiting Russian citizens amongst the stateless in Estonia.

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 996

Cicero wrote

> about half of the 300,000 Russian speakers are now Estonian citizens

Very, very few of the Russian speakers in Estonia today are actually
"immigrants". Some of them can trace their ancestry in Estonia
back many centuries, but some are the children or the grandchildren
or the great-grandchildren of immigrants. Stating that "about half
of the 300,000 Russian speakers are now Estonian citizens" implies
that there must be over 100,000 people, born in Estonia, who
are nevertheless denied full citizenship of the country in which
they were born. Do you think this is a state of affairs of which
the Estonian government should be proud ?

It is a total disgrace that there should be any kind of "citzenship test"
for people born in a country. If you are born in a country, then you
should be a citizen as of right.

The policies of the Estonian government are racist and fascist.
Now , I am quite willing to agree that racism and fascism
are no strangers to Big Brother in the Kremlin. But just because
there is racism and fascism in Russia does not excuse the racism
and fascism which can be found amongst Estonian Nationalists,
including amongst the present government/regime in Estonia.

Cicero · Finding Ma' Way Joined: 18 May 2007 Posts: 14

Oh dear RFM - I will not comment on the view that until the Teutonic Knights conquered the Baltic in the twelfth century that the Estonians were savages: History is written by the winners, and there is much evidence that the Sword Brothers were extremely violent. The Baltic cities were not admitted into the Hanseatic League until at least a century after the Danes and germans conquered the area. The Estonians were there before the Germans, and they survived after the Germans were removed after the First and Second World Wars. There is evidence that Estonians settled on the Baltic almost five thousand years ago. You are right, the name "Eesti" is relatively new- until the 19th century the Estonians called themselves Rahvamaalased- the people of the land. So what?

By the way, I rather resent your implication that I am somehow paid for holding my freely held opinions.

As to your other points:

"I note too that although Estonia subscribed to the European Convention against the death penalty for crimes, there seemed to be no hesitation in sentencing three young men to death for committing a robbery and murder recently. Of course the surnames of the young men betray the fact they were all Russians. One set of laws for the Estonians, another for the outsiders, human rights be damned. Whatever one might say about the Norwegians, racial bigotry is not one of their attribut"

- This is simply not true- Estonia does not have and does not intend to use the death penalty- unlike the Russian Federation. In fact almost all of your points are inaccurate, misleading or just plain wrong- your heavy English seems to mark you out as a non-native speaker, so I might ask: who is paying you?

For the record:

In the 1938 census of the 1.6 million population, Estonia was 88% Estonian, about 10% German and Swedish and about 8% Russian. No census was taken for decades after the war, but the latest populations are of 1.4 million about 65% is Estonian and about 25% is Russian. Many of these Russians came in the 1950s and 1960s- well within living memory- and they refused to have anything to do with the estonians- just being estonian was occasionally a crime: for example Estonians were forbidden to live in Narva at all for many years.

By some miracle the Estonians got back control of their own country and they have not been fascist, they have merely found legal ways to begin integrating a large and not particularly welcome coloniol body. Sure it has not been easy, but the integration process has actually been relatively smooth- until that is the Russian Embassy got involved.

LAZ- Spouting Russian propaganda on every line is not an efficient use of brain- I judge a man by his friends- and Transnistria is a very nasty place. Murdering British Citizens with Radioactive poison on the streets of London is damn nearly a casus belli- and can not be defended at any level. Meanwhile how do you defend the repeated harassment of opposition figures like Kasparov?

Sorry- your "Orthodox brotherhood" line is exactly the kind of primitive nonsense that was used to defend the murderer and crimninal Slobodan Milosovic. If I seem intemperate in language, I saw the Yugo war at close hand and do not forgive those who started it.

Cicero · Finding Ma' Way Joined: 18 May 2007 Posts: 14

Dave- It is simply not true to call Estonians racists and fascist- and given how many of them were murdered by the Nazis, it is not only wrong but extremely offensive. The Russians were not invited guests- they were Herrenvolk, but now they are being integrated into an open and democratic state- what is astonishing is the lack of rancour- so frankly I would take back this comments.

agentmancuso · Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 10:10 am Post subject:

agentmancuso · Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 10:15 am Post subject:

RFM · Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject:

To Cicero,
Your argument of Estonia as being somehow established in the 13th century, or thereabouts, is actually based on the notion of nationalism as race. That is that Germans, English, Spanish, etc. are people of a particular racial descent. I take it for granted that the recent DNA studies, sponored by various organizations such as National Geographic have exposed that old fallacy. Estonian is a political desigantion not a racial or ethnic designation.

Nobody pays me for my writing here, directly or indirectly, but if I were writing for pay, or to curry favor among my clients, or in the hopes of soliciting business, I would feel obliged to my readers to disclose that fact.
It is called bias, a matter that tends to put a certain spin on what an individual writes.

The names of the Estonians sentenced to death, are Andrew Ojala, Albert Solodov, Oleg Borisov, Vladimir Botchko and Sergei Krylov. Whether they are "citizens" or not is not disclosed, but their names make it abundantly clear what their origins are. Botchko's death sentence was commuted, but the others still await execution. See Amnesty International's reports. You seem to be uninformed about Estonia's position on the death penalty. See the Estonian ratification of the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights, adopted April 1993, specifically omitting Protocol #6 forbidding the death penalty.

While we are on the subject of wrong and misleading, I note you parrot the same nationalist line about it being a crime to be an Estonian before 1989 and not even being allowed to live in Narva. That was the big Soviet Naval Base wasn't it? Nobody without specific authorization was allowed to live in or near large Soviet military bases, Russians included.

I guess you find fault in Russia trying to protect its citizens when the country they have lived in for years decides they are now non-citizens unless they can pass written tests and live there for six more years. Shame on them for getting involved!

You also seem to be uninformed about the so-called spy, Litvinenko. The most likely source of the radiation poisoning, according to English newspapers, is the prominent Russian refugee currently residing in London. If that is a casus belli to you, the question to you is against who?

RFM · Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject:

To Agentmancuso,
I suppose the name of Lady Astor and her social circle is a complete mystery to you. Look it up and see what she and her upper-class English friends thought about Herr Hitler and the wonderful new world order he proposed. Or who she was cheering for while English Tommies were laying down their lives for King and country. Was it not also Neveille Chamberlain who said according to Margret McMillan, Hitler was a man he could do business with? You may also recall the mysterious ride of Rudolph Hess, high ranking deputy of Adolph Hitler who came as an emissary of some sort, and where he landed (bailed out actually). Although the details have never been made public it should be reasonably clear to even the most skeptical, he thought he was meeting friends.

I am not suggesting in any manner that the excesses of the Stalinist regime with all of its crimes and bloodshed are to be excused or even considered as offset in some manner by the excesses of the Hitler regime. Both are a blot on the pages of humanity. I have no idea what it is that you perceive as "Marxist flavored history" among the professional classes, but you might want to go back and reread Cicero's column again. If that is Marxism, or Marxist flavored, you must see marxists under your bed at night too.

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 996

Cicero wrote "Dave- It is simply not true to call Estonians racists and fascist".

Answer, I didn't.

I don't call ANY national or ethnic grouping racist and fascist.

To suggest that any national or ethnic grouping is inherently racist
would in itself be a racist statement !

What I say is that you can find racist and fascist opinions amongst
ANY national or ethnic grouping, and, for reasons of circumstances
and history, you can find more such attitudes amongst some
groups than you will find amongst others.

I wrote

" The policies of the Estonian government are racist and fascist".
Got that bit? I was talking about the Estonian GOVERNMENT,
and not the Estonian people as such.

I wrote

"Now , I am quite willing to agree that racism and fascism
are no strangers to Big Brother in the Kremlin".

Got that bit?

In referring to "Big Brother in the Kremlin", I was clearly referring
to the Russian GOVERNMENT , and not to the Russian people
as such.

I wrote

"But just because there is racism and fascism in Russia"
- note that this statement about what you can find in Russia
in no way refers to the Russian people as a whole - "does not
excuse the racism and fascism which can be found amongst
Estonian Nationalists" - got that bit? Racism and fascism
can be found "amongst Estonian Nationalists". It doesn't say
that ALL Estonian Nationalists are racist and fascist. "including
amongst the present government/regime in Estonia" - got
that bit? Including AMONGST the present government/regime
is Estonia does not even say that _everybody_ involved
with that regime is racist and fascist. .

Cicero writes

> The Russians

You mean the Russian speakers. Some of those who migrated
to Estonia from other parts of the USSR were not in fact
ethnic Russians, but Russian was the language which
they had in common.

> were not invited guests

Under the USSR, Estonia was a better place to live than some
other parts of the USSR. There were more job opportunities
etc. Where this is true, and where people are able to move,
you will get migration. These migrants broke no laws.
They were not "illegal immigrants".

> they are being integrated into an open and democratic state

You mean, their GRANDCHILDREN , born in Estonia of parents
also born in Estonia, are slowly and grudgingly being integrated.
Any state which denies automatic citizenship to some groups
of people born within its borders is racist, and I would question
the claim of such a state to be "open and democratic".

VLK · Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject:

Estonia has not acted in a very wise manner regarding its Russian-speaking minority. When Estonia regained independence, there was a hope that all the Russian-speaking people would leave Estonia. Indeed many have left but those who have remained have absolutely nowhere to go in Russia. The population of Estonia in 1989 was 1.7m while today it is 1.3m. Both the emigration of the Russian-speaking people as well as the terrible population-statistics have contributed to this situation. In Estonia and many other Eastern-European countries the death-rate is far higher than the birth-rate. Since the enlargement of the EU, emigration has further deteriorated the population-situation.

If Estonia had embraced the Russian-speaking people who wish to be Estonian citizens, the country would have loyal Russian-speaking citizens alongside the Estonian-speaking ones. Instead, the Russian-spaeking people have agreed to become tools of the Russian-propaganda. Of course the Russian-speakers realise themselves that the Russian government does not really care about them. In the longer run, having a very large proportion of the population without citizenship benefits no-one.

agentmancuso · Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject:

RFM · Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject:

To Agentmancuso;

Yes, Cicero is rational, intelligent and somewhat well informed, and also seems to be the product of English secondary schools. What does that do for your suggestion that 20th century history as taught is "Marxist flavored"?

agentmancuso · Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject:

It bears no relation to it whatsoever.

I myself was treated to a soft-Marxist view of history at school, but have emerged largely unscathed. Even at the time, I thought it was a bit dubious; with retrospect it was blatantly weighted. In a democracy, you see, it is possible to obtain, and even to profess alternative perspectives on history or politics, without running the risk of being silenced by the state, as is the usual practice in Marxist countries.
_________________
Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
Hayek