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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
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trueblue
3 Strikes - Banned!
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
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Location: caravan
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 Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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depends what you call poverty.
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
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Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Poverty is "living off less than 60% of the national average income." |
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Seabird
Finding Ma' Way
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Posts: 9
Location: The Spirit of Freedom Campaign for Leonard Peltier
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:53 am Post subject: |
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rs_azzuri,
What is the economical situation like in Scotland?? Pay, jobs??? It is sad that people still live in poverty in such a money oriented world. We have third world areas in this country and it is quite alarming and disheartening. It too angers me because the government controls means and ends to this.
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:05 am Post subject: |
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1 million people (20% of the population) are living below the poverty line. absolutely shocking in 2005.
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4413
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:19 am Post subject: |
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As correctly identified above, poverty is relative.
Less than 60% of the national average income, that's what, about £22,000 pa? Sixty percent of that is £13,200. It's not a great deal of money, I'll grant you, but I have lived on considerably less - particularly at university. Your average Ethopian could only dream of living on that.
Why is it unacceptable anyway? You have no idea what these people are like. Perhaps the majority are workshy layabouts.
Either way, I don't consider it shocking and no matter how far we progress as a society, there will always be inequality to that degree. No one in the UK starves to death or doesn't have a roof over their head (unless by choice) - that's quite a bloody achievement if you ask me. |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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I suggest you have a look at this article:
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=2273192005
Your ignorance in the rest of the above post shows no bounds.
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"Every single person on this planet is unique. Just like everyone else..." - Random Guy in Edinburgh Pub
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Last edited by azzuri on Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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i think im right in saying that the average income in the uk is no where near 22,000 as it is distorted by the mega rich. a far more accurate way of assessing income is to use the median, the middle value. Also when you were at university did you have a family to support? were you still racking up massive debt? would you have been able to pay this debt had you not been earning a decent wage now?
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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Isn't £22,000 the average household income?
If so that certainly doesn't give much weight to your argument.
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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im almost a hundred percent sure that 22,000 isnt the average income in britain, i'm thinking around 15,000 a year.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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22,000 does ring a bell though.
think that will be household income though.
however it would be interesting to see a scotland only average - think it will be far lower than the UK average
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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this website certianly shows that £22,000 is the average household income - http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=334
which suggests that the median household income will be far lower than this.
and I'd imagine, even lower again in Scotland alone.
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"Every single person on this planet is unique. Just like everyone else..." - Random Guy in Edinburgh Pub
Possibly the funniest site in the world, 'The Daily Mash' - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/ |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
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Seabird
Finding Ma' Way
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Posts: 9
Location: The Spirit of Freedom Campaign for Leonard Peltier
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:52 am Post subject: |
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Aventinian.
| Aventinian wrote: | Less than 60% of the national average income, that's what, about £22,000 pa? Sixty percent of that is £13,200. It's not a great deal of money, I'll grant you, but I have lived on considerably less - particularly at university. Your average Ethopian could only dream of living on that.
Why is it unacceptable anyway? You have no idea what these people are like. Perhaps the majority are workshy layabouts.
Either way, I don't consider it shocking and no matter how far we progress as a society, there will always be inequality to that degree. No one in the UK starves to death or doesn't have a roof over their head (unless by choice) - that's quite a bloody achievement if you ask me. |
Several things sent up a red flag for me in your post. You stated that the average annual income is 13,200. Tell me when was the last time you had to put a roof over your family's head, food on the table, pay all the bills and still have money to commute back and forth to work on 13,200?? That is an unacceptable salary. Do you believe the owners of these businesses are struggling to survive? I doubt it. The rich get richer while the poor remain in poverty. There is alot the government can do to force big businesses to give a decent salary for a hard days work but they don't. It is those very businesses that line the pockets of our politicians. Are you certain the homeless are homeless by choice?? If you dare to answer yes, please point me to your survey and the method used in obtaining the data!
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wallacesclaymore
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 94
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | As correctly identified above, poverty is relative.
Less than 60% of the national average income, that's what, about £22,000 pa? Sixty percent of that is £13,200. It's not a great deal of money, I'll grant you, but I have lived on considerably less - particularly at university. Your average Ethopian could only dream of living on that.
Why is it unacceptable anyway? You have no idea what these people are like. Perhaps the majority are workshy layabouts.
Either way, I don't consider it shocking and no matter how far we progress as a society, there will always be inequality to that degree. No one in the UK starves to death or doesn't have a roof over their head (unless by choice) - that's quite a bloody achievement if you ask me. |
You have lived on "considerably less" - good for you pal...well done. An achivement...your point is? It's good to live on nothing? You lived on less whilst at University (and you mentioned workshy?) - I suggest you didnt do all that much work yourself whilst at University if you lived on far less.
Funny, I went to university also and managed to EARN a fair bit...I suppose that'll be due to my being workshy and working every minute (almost) when I wasnt actually AT university.
The plight of the Ethiopians IS poverty and NOBODY is debating this but WHY do you bring this into a debate that is NOTHING to do with it???
Why is unacceptable and "you have no idea what these people are like" - that, is bullshit. YOU, have the arrogance of a self righteous fool who knows NOTHING of the real world....
"Either way, I don't consider it shocking and no matter how far we progress as a society, there will always be inequality to that degree. No one in the UK starves to death or doesn't have a roof over their head (unless by choice) - that's quite a bloody achievement if you ask me."
You are obviously a martyr to poverty and enjoy being poor based on your ability to live on less and the fact you dont "consider" it shocking. There WILL always be inequality, NOBODY is debating that fact but the fact remains MANY people who have worked HARD all their lives are still paid totally crap wages and I suggest, much of the manual/less pleasant work these people do is FAR from workshy but in fact, what they MUST do to put bread on the table.
And now for your party piece "No one in the UK starves to death or doesn't have a roof over their head (unless by choice)" - that, is bollocks. You have stated complete and utter drivel which even by YOUR standards is a poor excuse for a comment. People DO starve to death and NOT everybody who is homeless CHOOSE to be that way...do you live in the real world ??? OBVIOUSLY NOT....
You're clearly on the windup on this site and out to piss everybody off. I personally hope you find another site that befits your far superior intelligence and logic to plauge as your stupid, crass, ignorant comments are REALLY starting to irke me.
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| wallacesclaymore wrote: | | And now for your party piece "No one in the UK starves to death or doesn't have a roof over their head (unless by choice)" - that, is bollocks. You have stated complete and utter drivel which even by YOUR standards is a poor excuse for a comment. People DO starve to death and NOT everybody who is homeless CHOOSE to be that way...do you live in the real world ??? OBVIOUSLY NOT.... |
Absolutely, nobody chooses to live in poverty or to be homeless. Unless you count the people who chose to be homeless because they are escaping abuse etc. Most of the people who suffer from being homeless or from extreme poverty are from the most vulnerable sections of society, children, mentally ill, pensioners etc. From the Evening News today:
| Quote: | 1500 families in the Lothians are homeless
NEARLY 1500 families with children in Edinburgh and the Lothians were assessed as homeless last year.
New figures show that, in the Capital alone, 875 families - 1.89 per cent of all households with children in the city - were homeless, 26 more than the year before.
Across Scotland, the number of homeless families rose to 9395, representing nearly 16,000 children.
The figures were condemned by SNP deputy health spokesman Stewart Maxwell, who claimed the Scottish Executive was failing in its pledge to end homelessness.
He said: "These figures confirm what many of us feared. Instead of seeing the decline and eradication of homelessness in Scotland, we are seeing a year-on-year rise.
"The reality for many thousands of children across Scotland this year is that they will have a homeless Christmas, rather than a happy Christmas."
The figures show a total of 1491 families with children assessed as homeless in Edinburgh and the Lothians, up from 1471 the previous year.
In East Lothian, the number was up from 133 to 137; in Midlothian, the increase was from 137 to 173; while in West Lothian, there was a fall - from 352 to 306.
The number of children affected fell slightly in Edinburgh, from 1460 to 1421.
But it rose in East Lothian from 202 to 221; and in Midlothian from 223 to 283; while in West Lothian, it fell dramatically from 626 to 525. |
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Gypsum_Fantastic
On A Journey (500 Miles)
Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | As correctly identified above, poverty is relative. |
Exactimundo.
The poverty of Britain is not economic but spiritual and moral.
A check in any of the library archives would provide evidence that the area I live in was not, in the harsher economic times of the 1940's and 1950's, subject to drugs, vandalism, violence and theft that blight it today. The sociological argument that poverty breeds crime had not been invented yet.
Much of the British 'poor' have lifestyles which would shame a Roman emperor. Of course, we're not living in such times. But the 'poor' today are not living a life of material lack, of insufficiency of basic needs or of untreated illness. Theirs is a misery caused by a spiritual vacuum.
And that's the true root of the misery and squalor that many people do indeed find themselves in today - it is moral lack, rather than economic.
| Aventinian wrote: | | Why is it unacceptable anyway? You have no idea what these people are like. Perhaps the majority are workshy layabouts. |
Precisely.
There are many factors which perpetuate the 'poverty' problem including low regard for academic achievement and a general disinterest, even hatred, of social ambition. People hate their lot but perversely hate those better off than them - thus creating a psychological conundrum for themselves; they hate where they are and hate the lifestyle any attempt at positive change would bring them.
This hatred is a direct result of the belief, fostered by the Left, that people are victims of circumstance, or at least occult sociological and economic forces outwith their control. This passivity breeds resentment that their lot is down to Chance, or more likely the System, and that nothing they could ever do could change this. Those who succeed in rising through the social strata are, in turn, despised and envied - the success of one is a reproach to all. Throw in the State's 'benevolence' which drains the last drops of motivation for change away and you have a poisonous cocktail.
The problems of the underclass detritus are not monetary-based.
| Aventinian wrote: | | Either way, I don't consider it shocking and no matter how far we progress as a society, there will always be inequality to that degree. No one in the UK starves to death or doesn't have a roof over their head (unless by choice) - that's quite a bloody achievement if you ask me. |
Precisely. Inevitable consequence of freedom is inequality. I can't believe we're still having this argument in the 21st century. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Gypsum_Fantastic wrote: | | Aventinian wrote: | | Either way, I don't consider it shocking and no matter how far we progress as a society, there will always be inequality to that degree. No one in the UK starves to death or doesn't have a roof over their head (unless by choice) - that's quite a bloody achievement if you ask me. |
Precisely. Inevitable consequence of freedom is inequality. I can't believe we're still having this argument in the 21st century. |
Much of the poverty in Scotland is not caused by 'freedom', but lack of it. In the highlands, there is a growing problem with homelessness. This is due to the council planning departments and large estate owners distorting the market.
As for some of the poverty in the cities, you mention 'the left' above. That may be where the decay began, but you are looking at kids growing up now in estates where hardly anyone works, where there are huge social problems, and you expect these kids to grow up with a healthy attitude regarding self-improvement... These problems are not caused by 'freedom' but by failed attempts at social engineering. |
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Gypsum_Fantastic
On A Journey (500 Miles)
Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| SLG wrote: | | As for some of the poverty in the cities, you mention 'the left' above. That may be where the decay began, but you are looking at kids growing up now in estates where hardly anyone works, where there are huge social problems, and you expect these kids to grow up with a healthy attitude regarding self-improvement... These problems are not caused by 'freedom' but by failed attempts at social engineering. |
It is a poisonous cocktail, as I said. The State having helped to create the problem is not, therefore, the solution to the problem.
A graveyard study in Glasgow revealed adults in some areas died younger than others - better off in Bearsden than Drumchapel, in other words. On closer examination, it appeared that the Drumchapel folk were less inclined to view their personal health as their personal responsibility. Health was something that just happened to you and there's nothing you could do about it - now pass me the fags.
And that's what happens when the State controls vast areas of a person's life - their health, their education, their housing, their jobs, if unemployed their income, and so on. It saps people of their sense of ambition, motivation and responsiblity. Someone else will deal with it. |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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so is it merely a coincidence that those who are born into middle and upper class families are more likely to go to university, get better jobs etc where as those who are born into working class families are less likely to do so? are the working classes just born to be lazy? is it in the genes?
Its also shown that ethnic groups are more likely to offend than others, is that in the genes also?
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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