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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4403
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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 Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| SLG wrote: | | That was of course what I was alluding to. Demand fiscal responsibility from Holyrood and I would expect to see a sea change in attitude from the Executive, the parliament and the electorate. |
Well there's some common ground. After all, power withhout responsibility is the prerogative of the harlot.
| Quote: | | Fair enough. I often use London to refer to Westminster. Living in Edinburgh I find it a bit difficult to regard it as an Edinburgh Parliament as it is pretty much contained within Holyrood. |
I've noticed that quite a lot of people say things like 'the Westminster government' for HM Gov. Whatever happened to 'Whitehall'...
| Quote: | | Yes I gave in. With hindsight I'm sure I could have got away with it, but I was caught a bit off-guard. Which brings me to the other power that should at the very least be repatriated without threat to the UK - that of broadcasting. Scotland is IMO very poorly served at present. |
Personally I think the government should keep its nose out of broadcasting and if the BBC is to continue, it should be independently as a charitable organisation based on subscription. I like the BBC, it often produces some excellent programmes and I would hope that will continue after it breaks free of the control of the DCMS.
Aside from that, I suppose deregulation of broadcasting as much as is practical, regardless of the level at which it is done.
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Niall
Gaining a Reputation........
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Location: Cairnbulg
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:49 am Post subject: |
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Aventian a charaid.
You wrote: | Quote: | I believe I did answer your posts on the subject.
Incidently, we were referring to Great Britain. South Africa and India have never been part of Great Britain or the United Kingdom. |
India, South Africe and various other parts of the map coloured red were part of THE BRITISH EMPIRE ruled from LONDON! Genocidal atrocities were carried out on the direction of powerful figures in the British establishment. Ducking and weaving on this subject will not work. Face up to the fact the Britain carried out genocide and other atrocities and to Scotlands eternal shame, Scots were often involved.
'S mise
Niall.
_________________
Cha deanar duine glic ach air a chosd fheinn. |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2597
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:55 am Post subject: n |
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| Quote: | | Britain carried out genocide and other atrocities and to Scotlands eternal shame, Scots were often involved. |
By definition we were always involved as Britain includes Scotland. In reality we were almost always involved as well, if not always. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Well there's some common ground. After all, power withhout responsibility is the prerogative of the harlot. |
Even the Tories are looking like the might come round to the idea!
| Aventinian wrote: | | I've noticed that quite a lot of people say things like 'the Westminster government' for HM Gov. Whatever happened to 'Whitehall'... |
Well at the end of the day, Whitehall is in the city of Westminster so to refer to the whole government as Westminster is appropriate. It might also be a reflection on the power residing with the ministers rather than the Whitehall mandarins. It is important to know who is making what decisions though. The Scottish press are terrible at refering to decisions made by the Executive as the Parliament. It's one of the reasons why I think there is high level of disillusionment with the parliament. Folk see it's failures as that of the parliament itself rather than with the present Executive.
| Quote: | Personally I think the government should keep its nose out of broadcasting and if the BBC is to continue, it should be independently as a charitable organisation based on subscription. I like the BBC, it often produces some excellent programmes and I would hope that will continue after it breaks free of the control of the DCMS.
Aside from that, I suppose deregulation of broadcasting as much as is practical, regardless of the level at which it is done. |
You see that is the main difference between the two of us Aventinian. You see problems such as that above and hope that state broadcasting will be reformed at a UK level. I can't see that happening. I do have faith that a Scottish parliament with little influence from Westminster will reform our broadcasting much to the benefit of the people that live within these arbitrary borders. |
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Shadowman
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Niall wrote: | Aventian a charaid.
You wrote: | Quote: | I believe I did answer your posts on the subject.
Incidently, we were referring to Great Britain. South Africa and India have never been part of Great Britain or the United Kingdom. |
India, South Africe and various other parts of the map coloured red were part of THE BRITISH EMPIRE ruled from LONDON! Genocidal atrocities were carried out on the direction of powerful figures in the British establishment. Ducking and weaving on this subject will not work. Face up to the fact the Britain carried out genocide and other atrocities and to Scotlands eternal shame, Scots were often involved.
'S mise
Niall. |
What have "genocides" that took place in the British Empire got to do with Scottish nationalism in 2005? I still can't see the connection. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Shadowman wrote: | | What have "genocides" that took place in the British Empire got to do with Scottish nationalism in 2005? I still can't see the connection. |
Maybe because it puts paid to the myth of Britain as a benign entity that has only ever wanted to good in Scotland and the world. IMO all the history of the Union is relevant to how we decide to move forward. |
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Niall
Gaining a Reputation........
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 177
Location: Cairnbulg
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Shadowman wrote: | | What have "genocides" that took place in the British Empire got to do with Scottish nationalism in 2005? I still can't see the connection. |
Our unionist friend Aventian was denying that atrocities and genocidal activities were carried out by the British state, despite massive evidence to the contrary. Scottish unionists often wrap themselves in the butchers apron comfort blanket and ignore its bloodstained history. Remember 150 years ago Scots and Irish and to a lesser extent the Welsh were regarded as 'Subhumans' and we all know what happened in 1933 to 1945 when the Germans regarded so called inferior races as subhumans.
'S mise
Niall.
_________________
Cha deanar duine glic ach air a chosd fheinn. |
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Shadowman
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| SLG wrote: | | Shadowman wrote: | | What have "genocides" that took place in the British Empire got to do with Scottish nationalism in 2005? I still can't see the connection. |
Maybe because it puts paid to the myth of Britain as a benign entity that has only ever wanted to good in Scotland and the world. |
Since when has any country attempted to act as a benign influence in the world? Only the truly stupid would be naive enough to base policy on what will benefit "the world".
Governments have responsibilities to their own citizens, not those of other countries. Whether people have a responsibility to help those less fortunate is another matter entirely. |
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Shadowman
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Niall wrote: | | Shadowman wrote: | | What have "genocides" that took place in the British Empire got to do with Scottish nationalism in 2005? I still can't see the connection. |
Our unionist friend Aventian was denying that atrocities and genocidal activities were carried out by the British state, despite massive evidence to the contrary. Scottish unionists often wrap themselves in the butchers apron comfort blanket and ignore its bloodstained history. Remember 150 years ago Scots and Irish and to a lesser extent the Welsh were regarded as 'Subhumans' and we all know what happened in 1933 to 1945 when the Germans regarded so called inferior races as subhumans.
'S mise
Niall. |
You're not Irish, so let's not be petty and call the Union Flag the "Butcher's Apron". The fact that you can compare English attitudes to the Welsh and Scots as being comparable to the Nazis views of Jewry show that you have no understanding of the relationships between our island's nations, either historically or now.
Anyway, even if this view were somehow widespread, why should biggotted attitudes of the past affect politics today? And also, let's not pretend this doesn't cut both ways: current racism towards English people who move to Scotland is well-known, but no-one seems to care.
After all, white middle-class Englsih people are to blame for everything. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4403
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Niall wrote: | | India, South Africe and various other parts of the map coloured red were part of THE BRITISH EMPIRE ruled from LONDON! Genocidal atrocities were carried out on the direction of powerful figures in the British establishment. Ducking and weaving on this subject will not work. Face up to the fact the Britain carried out genocide and other atrocities and to Scotlands eternal shame, Scots were often involved |
Of course the British Empire was under the sovereignty of the UK Parliament, but to say it was ruled and run by the UK authorities is simplistic. I doubt there were ever any call in the British Parliament to massacre natives.
While I don't deny that some unpleasant incidents occured (as they tend to do in every nations history) we have, as a country, been quite peaceful and well governed in history.
| Niall wrote: | | Our unionist friend Aventian was denying that atrocities and genocidal activities were carried out by the British state, despite massive evidence to the contrary. Scottish unionists often wrap themselves in the butchers apron comfort blanket and ignore its bloodstained history. |
Yes, because every other country has never engaged in any war or any shameful event. Indeed, outside of the United Kingdom no one is raped, murdered or a victim of theft. They all drive reliable German cars and spend their evenings after a day of well-paid part-time work sipping Bohemian absinthe and discussing the finer points of Greek mythology...
Before 1707, Scotland was like this. Indeed, we invented the personal computer and the internet, and also had our own operating system called Scotex - which was effectively an incredibly easy to use and practical pre-Linux distro. However in 1708 the English came and took this from us, killing everyone who claimed to remember it and used Excel spreadsheets to oppress us via irregular taxation.
| Quote: | | Remember 150 years ago Scots and Irish and to a lesser extent the Welsh were regarded as 'Subhumans' |
Bullshit. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Shadowman wrote: | | Since when has any country attempted to act as a benign influence in the world? Only the truly stupid would be naive enough to base policy on what will benefit "the world". |
Is the US not trying to spread democracy about the world for the good of the world as we speak?
| Shadowman wrote: | | Governments have responsibilities to their own citizens, not those of other countries. Whether people have a responsibility to help those less fortunate is another matter entirely. |
But sometimes governments take their responsibility more seriously for some groups of citizens over that of others. |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2597
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject: m |
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| Quote: | | Remember 150 years ago Scots and Irish and to a lesser extent the Welsh were regarded as 'Subhumans' |
And less than a hundred years ago the Church of Scotland were issuing documents declaring the same about the Irish immigrants. At that time a scotsman was the Prime Minister, so obviously the English had got over the bigotry while the Scots hadn't. MacDonald of course won in the election following Bonar Laws retirement, Boner Law was a Canadian of Ulster Scots descent, he replaced a certain welshman. |
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Shadowman
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| SLG wrote: | | Shadowman wrote: | | Since when has any country attempted to act as a benign influence in the world? Only the truly stupid would be naive enough to base policy on what will benefit "the world". |
Is the US not trying to spread democracy about the world for the good of the world as we speak? |
The US is attempting to spread liberal democracy throughout the world, as democratic nations are less likely to pursue policies that threaten the USA or its interests.
| Shadowman wrote: | | Governments have responsibilities to their own citizens, not those of other countries. Whether people have a responsibility to help those less fortunate is another matter entirely. |
But sometimes governments take their responsibility more seriously for some groups of citizens over that of others.[/quote]
So are you suggesting UK governments have always discriminated against the Scots in everything they do? I don't see how you can justify that when public expenditure reaches Soviet levels in some areas of Scotland. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Shadowman wrote: | | The US is attempting to spread liberal democracy throughout the world, as democratic nations are less likely to pursue policies that threaten the USA or its interests. |
That's a very cynical attitude.
| Shadowman wrote: | | So are you suggesting UK governments have always discriminated against the Scots in everything they do? I don't see how you can justify that when public expenditure reaches Soviet levels in some areas of Scotland. |
No I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that there are differences in government north and south of the border, and what is good for those south of the border is given priority over what is good for those in the north. What are the levels at which public expenditure become classified as 'Soviet'? And you think we are favoured citizens because we have a high level of public spend that, even being as high as it is, is still less than what we put in? |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4403
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| SLG wrote: | | Shadowman wrote: | | The US is attempting to spread liberal democracy throughout the world, as democratic nations are less likely to pursue policies that threaten the USA or its interests. |
That's a very cynical attitude. |
[/quote]
If the US had some sort of noble intention, it certainly would not be acting in this way. It's cowed opposition from certain countries and is eliminating the rest and particularly the ones where the government isn't actually controlling all of its territory (like Afghanistan) so that they can use democracy to justify greater control of the people.
It's not cynical, it's obvious. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| I was being sarcastic! I can see it's obvious. There are plenty people who don't see that way though due to the government pr. |
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