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Maol.Chaluim
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 418
Location: Glaschu
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 Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Maol.Chaluim wrote: | | The USA is the largest economy in the world. Do you want to join them? If you're trying to present an economic argument against independence, you have either not seen the wealth of evidence, from the British government among others, that an independent Scotland is perfectly viable, or you choose to ignore it. |
For the last time, of course an independent Scotland is viable. |
What do you mean "for the last time"? I wasn't responding to you, silly!
| Aventinian wrote: |
| Shadowman wrote: | a generous wellfare state, universal healthcare and education?
You're assuming these would automatically disappear after independence. |
Are you trying to say any of the supposed benefits of Nationalism could never be replicated in a situation where sovereignty rests outside of Edinburgh? I believe you are throwing stones around your glass house here.
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Nothing of the sort, I was simply responding to something Shadowman said. I didn't make any judgement on the subject.
| Quote: | | Maol.Chaluim wrote: | | Have you considered the fact that the "country" which we're currently part of is refered to as "England" in most parts of the world? |
By a few ignorant people, admittedly. But they're hardly worth worrying about.
I'm certainly not going to change my political beliefs based on the stupidity of foreigners.
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The point is, we're talking about a situation similar to that of the USSR, which was often refered to as "Russia", due to the perception that Russia ran the Soviet Union. Obviously lost on the likes of yourself, no doubt deluded enough to think that the UK is a "union of equal partners".
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Dave78
On A Journey (500 Miles)
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | Taking the UK for a ride financially for two hundred years and then jumping ship when the empire is deminished and the cash is a bit tight would just be bloody bad manners - not to mention tribalistic.
That said, I still don't agree with your economic pounding on and certainly see no reason why our country (all of it, not just the northern bit) cannot prosper as well, and better, within the structure of the UK. |
Aye, there's the rub.
Aventinian, would you agree with me when i say you are a British Nationalist (that is to say you are British first, Scottish second)? That's the only way i can see how you are able to ignore the weight of evidence in support of Scottish independence.
Btw, considering this, your position on independence is completely understandable. It's just a relief for the rest of us that the majority of Scots don't share your view!  |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4203
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:25 am Post subject: |
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I am not any sort of nationalist. I am a human being first and foremost. If you're asking me to demonstrate tribal loyalties, my family, my village and so forth come long before Britishness or Scottishness even enters into it.
As for your comment, I don't think I can say I'm more Scottish than British or vice-versa as British encompasses Scottishness. The simple fact is there is no weight of evidence in favour of Scottish nationalism. It's all either thinly-veiled racism, people being out for themselves or some bizarre believe that culture should dictate statehood. Personally, I don't see why you lot care to do anything in my name simply because of accident of birth making me Scottish. To me, you're no different than any other person regardless of what labels we apply to each other.
It is a relief for you that people have a 'here tae us...' attitude rather than one that doesn't care about where people are born or what culture they live by? I'm sorry, but I totally disagree. |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2538
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:26 am Post subject: s |
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| Quote: | | I am not any sort of nationalist. I am a human being first and foremost. If you're asking me to demonstrate tribal loyalties, my family, my village and so forth come long before Britishness or Scottishness even enters into it. |
Isn't it strange how you can be British but not a nationalist. Yet you cannot see how I can advicate an independent Scotland but not be a nationalist. Am I to assume you would be happy for Britain to be part of a united europe? |
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Dave78
On A Journey (500 Miles)
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | I am not any sort of nationalist. I am a human being first and foremost. If you're asking me to demonstrate tribal loyalties, my family, my village and so forth come long before Britishness or Scottishness even enters into it. |
Presumably you would argue to defend British interests before French or Irish ones, yes? Wouldn't that make you a British nationalist, and by your logic either 'racist, out for yourself or bizarrely believeing that culture dictates statehood'?
| Quote: | | As for your comment, I don't think I can say I'm more Scottish than British or vice-versa as British encompasses Scottishness. The simple fact is there is no weight of evidence in favour of Scottish nationalism. |
Well actually there's an awful lot of evidence, a lot of which you've read no doubt but choose to ignore. That's fine though... i now understand how you square this circle - you are a British nationalist who's first loyalty is to the UK.
| Quote: | | It is a relief for you that people have a 'here tae us...' attitude rather than one that doesn't care about where people are born or what culture they live by? I'm sorry, but I totally disagree. |
No, i meant it's a relief for me that the majority of Scots don't feel the same affinity for Britain as you, since i believe it puts our country (Scotland) at a disadvantage. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave78 wrote: | | Aventinian wrote: | | It is a relief for you that people have a 'here tae us...' attitude rather than one that doesn't care about where people are born or what culture they live by? I'm sorry, but I totally disagree. |
No, i meant it's a relief for me that the majority of Scots don't feel the same affinity for Britain as you, since i believe it puts our country (Scotland) at a disadvantage. |
The vast majority of those I know who advocate independence do so because they genuinely believe that it will make the country and the lives of it's citizens better. The may be wrong, but the motivation is all positive. I also don't know anyone who believes that our actions will have a negative effect on the people in the rest-of-the-UK or world for that matter. Or those born outwith Scotland who have made it their home. |
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Dave78
On A Journey (500 Miles)
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| SLG wrote: | | The vast majority of those I know who advocate independence do so because they genuinely believe that it will make the country and the lives of it's citizens better. The may be wrong, but the motivation is all positive. I also don't know anyone who believes that our actions will have a negative effect on the people in the rest-of-the-UK or world for that matter. Or those born outwith Scotland who have made it their home. |
Exactly.
I support independence because i look at the case for it, and it's stronger than keeping the status quo... not because i'm some bitter, anti-english Jacobite that's still pissed off about Culloden! 
I've had people tell me "Hitler was a nationalist, i think that says it all about the SNP". 
Why do some people think supporting Scottish independence is xenophobic and anti-British?  |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4203
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave78 wrote: | | Aventinian wrote: | | I am not any sort of nationalist. I am a human being first and foremost. If you're asking me to demonstrate tribal loyalties, my family, my village and so forth come long before Britishness or Scottishness even enters into it. |
Presumably you would argue to defend British interests before French or Irish ones, yes? Wouldn't that make you a British nationalist, and by your logic either 'racist, out for yourself or bizarrely believeing that culture dictates statehood'? |
Your original assumption is incorrect and thus everything that follows is wrong. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4203
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: s |
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| Rinty wrote: | | Isn't it strange how you can be British but not a nationalist. |
I can have a cultural identity without it becoming politicised in any way, shape or form. As it happens, culturally I am very strongly Scottish and British, but that doesn't make me a nationalist on either front any more than it makes me want to separate my village of residence from the country I live in (which is actually a far more attractive offer than Scottish independent due to the present local authority's incompetence and prejudice)
| Quote: | | Yet you cannot see how I can advicate an independent Scotland but not be a nationalist. Am I to assume you would be happy for Britain to be part of a united europe? |
No, I really can't.
I'd be happy for Britain to be part of a united Europe. I'd prefer we were unified within the Commonwealth first and the Nato states too. I'd want to see a hell of a lot of changes in the structure, but I have nothing fundamentally against a decentralised European Union. You'll note I avoid using the term 'European (super)state' as this wouldn't be a state - states are a dying concept. Look at how the UK Parliament is apparently 'sovereign,' yet the EC Parliament can enact legislation above its head. Things aren't as simple any more.
You should also note that I am a Libertarian and while I believe in things being done at many levels (ie, the most appropriate) I also believe in very small government with minimal obligations and individuals looking after themselves. |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2538
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:39 pm Post subject: a |
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I also belive in small central govt and power being decentralised. With you being a libertarian nd me being a marxist we will obviously disgree with how to get there and as to why we are doing it. But ultimately what you are talking about is an ideal example what I am talking about is policy on demcracy in this country today.
You proscribe borders for among others britain and europe, I proscribe no borders. You prefer an alliance with a set group of people in prefernce over others (commonwelath rather than EU), I have no such retsrictions or requiremenst for scotland. I call fro open borders in my earlier post, yet you say I must be nationalist but you cannot be?
Would you say that anyone who wants any country to decide its own affairs has to be, by definiton, a nationalist? |
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wallacesclaymore
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 94
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:39 am Post subject: |
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I HATE to over simplify matters here but please humour me for a second.
1) Does any British Nationalist/Non Scottish Nationalist HONESTLY believe any SINGLE ONE OF US nationalists would seriously be chasing such a dream to make our life worse???
2) Does anybody HONESTLY believe we would chase such an ideal simply to pay more taxes, head for economic ruin and in short, cut of our noses to spite our faces just so we can say we are our own "country" ????
I assure all the fools who believe so, I do stand behind nationalisim for the SOLE reason that I HONESTLY believe our lives will be improved by self rule.
Take it to stupid levels......when did the people at the top of the chain in any walk of life give a REAL and I mean REAL toss for those at the "perceived" bottom.....I am not ANTI-ENGLISH/BRITISH, I am PRO SCOTTISH and I believe, ONLY, ONLY by self rule can we ever 100% gain full advantage.
Its human nature to "look after your own"....something British/English politicians (and even "Mr" Brown with his "we" "us" "our" chances of hosting the fitba in ENGLAND (he is SCOTTISH) has demonstrated time and time again.
WE CAN TRULY NEVER EXPECT the trend to be bucked until we take responsibility for ourselves, manage our own affairs, make our OWN fak ups and gain our own rewards....NOBODY is saying life will be improved beyond belief but we ARE saying we CAN go it alone WITHOUT the help of a shity union that nobody ever wanted, was impressed ONLY by economic pressure some 300 years ago and still now, there is no economic, social or any other REAL justifiable reason for us to remain part of this "union"... a "union" that is so lop-sided it could fall over in a whim.
And that, is my honest, truthful and genuine opinion....
Thats NOT anti english/british as I say - thats PRO-SCOTTISH.....
WC
_________________
SNP x 3 .... 3rd May 2007 |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4203
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:19 am Post subject: Re: a |
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| Rinty wrote: | | You proscribe borders for among others britain and europe, I proscribe no borders. You prefer an alliance with a set group of people in prefernce over others (commonwelath rather than EU), I have no such retsrictions or requiremenst for scotland. I call fro open borders in my earlier post, yet you say I must be nationalist but you cannot be? |
I've read a few of the CPGB articles on British unity against capitalism and was quite struck by how much of it I would probably argue in favour of, despite being from the completely opposite political camp.
I do not intend to be exclusionist in my preference of one group over another (eg, Commonwealth over EU) merely that I am a realist. The EU will not support the kind of government I support, whereas the Commonwealth largely share our values and systems. The Commonwealth is, however, an incredibly diverse group of nations.
| Quote: | | Would you say that anyone who wants any country to decide its own affairs has to be, by definiton, a nationalist? |
Pretty much. It requires a concept of 'our people' and 'our own affairs' which is essentially nationalistic. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4203
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| wallacesclaymore wrote: | 1) Does any British Nationalist/Non Scottish Nationalist HONESTLY believe any SINGLE ONE OF US nationalists would seriously be chasing such a dream to make our life worse???
2) Does anybody HONESTLY believe we would chase such an ideal simply to pay more taxes, head for economic ruin and in short, cut of our noses to spite our faces just so we can say we are our own "country" ???? |
I've asked a few Nationalists this very question, and most seem to suggest that they'd support an independent Scotland even if it left Scotland and/or the rest of the UK poorer as a consequence.
I certainly believe it was the thinking in Africa during decolonialisation.
| Quote: | | I assure all the fools who believe so, I do stand behind nationalisim for the SOLE reason that I HONESTLY believe our lives will be improved by self rule. |
Surely even you must admit that in a decentralised and dynamic Union of some form, all the supposed benefits of Scottish nationalism could be achieved with extra benefits...
Not that I support that sort of union necessarily.
| Quote: | | Take it to stupid levels......when did the people at the top of the chain in any walk of life give a REAL and I mean REAL toss for those at the "perceived" bottom |
That's a bit of a rant, ain't it? Surely it is the duty of every human being to look after himself.
| Quote: | | Its human nature to "look after your own"....something British/English politicians (and even "Mr" Brown with his "we" "us" "our" chances of hosting the fitba in ENGLAND (he is SCOTTISH) has demonstrated time and time again. |
England is part of the UK. If we were going to host the Olympics in Glasgow, we'd be calling it 'our' bid, no doubt.
It may be human nature to look after our own. But what do you define as your own? Personally, I'd call a middle class Englishman more 'my own' than I would some fifteen year old Glaswegian ned. More importantly, regardless of it being human nature to look after your own family etc, I don't believe this entends as far as nations and people you don't know and share no common experiences with.
On another front, I don't believe the law should essentially support human nature. After all, it is human nature to kill or attack someone who wrongs you. This is not endorsed by the law for a reason - it is unjust in the eyes of those who made it. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | I've asked a few Nationalists this very question, and most seem to suggest that they'd support an independent Scotland even if it left Scotland and/or the rest of the UK poorer as a consequence.
I certainly believe it was the thinking in Africa during decolonialisation. |
That's asking a hypothetical question. I don't know a single nationalist who thinks that we will be significantly materially worse off when independent. So, how can they genuinely answer that question. If I was asked it, I would probably say go with a poorer independent country. When it came to the referendum, if I genuinely believed we would be worse off, I would probably think differently. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian, you mention in one post recently that you are a realist! Which I find a bit difficult to believe. Surely as a realist, you must accept that even if you feel no connection with your fellow Scots, that amongst the vast majority there is a feeling of national identity and common bond. Likewise this exists in England. This is an extension to the feeling that we have for ourselves, within our family, community and upwards... Few people take the 'enlightened' view that you take. Our political leaders are no exception. So while there is also a sense of British national identity amongst many of our politicians, their outlook is also tinged by the English/Welsh/Scottish nationalism. This leads to a parliament that does not represent Scotland's best interests. You seem compare this to the feeling of regional identity within these countries, but that is of a very different scale. Scotland is a small country and I don't see there being a great deal of regional conflict. Devolution of power too as low a level as possible can avoid that. The will never be achieved while the UK exists in it's present state. |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2538
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:26 pm Post subject: a |
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Aventinian,
Can I ask why you have a union flag as your avatar and describe your home as "albion". It is really strange behaviour for someone who is so opposed to nationalism to use ancient names for Britain and fly a national flag.
And what about your name? I am sure it is not a trbute to Italian socialists and do not know other references to aventinians. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4203
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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I use the Union Flag as my avatar because in absence of my own standard (one day... however the procedure in Scotland is long and rather drawn out) I am using something the national one. Also to use any personal symbolism would give away some of my anonymity - which is never a good idea when broadcasting your opinions on the 'net. I don't fly it for patriotic reasons really, more to remind my fellow Britons and the state generally that I am a British citizen and that people with my opinions and wishes exist within this state.
Albion is just me going of on a poetic bent. I am not immune to romanticising my country a little. The head may well rule the heart, but it does not cancel it out.
Finally the user name... I really don't like giving away their meanings on forums. They lose a little of their magic. But yes, I have my reasons. If you care to guess what they are, I certainly won't mind. |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2538
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:14 pm Post subject: b |
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| Quote: | I use the Union Flag as my avatar because in absence of my own standard (one day... however the procedure in Scotland is long and rather drawn out) I am using something the national one. Also to use any personal symbolism would give away some of my anonymity - which is never a good idea when broadcasting your opinions on the 'net. I don't fly it for patriotic reasons really, more to remind my fellow Britons and the state generally that I am a British citizen and that people with my opinions and wishes exist within this state.
Albion is just me going of on a poetic bent. I am not immune to romanticising my country a little. The head may well rule the heart, but it does not cancel it out. |
Sounds suspiciously like a nationalist tendency to me. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4203
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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Mm... the plot thickens, eh?
I've never been against 'nationalism' (whether Scottish, British, European, etc; 'nationalism' is perhaps not the right term, but patriotism seems the wrong one to use too) but I would also never dream of dragging it into the political sphere.
I personally am not very patriotic, I must confess. But I do enjoy the traditions and long-standing culture of where I come from.
I should also pre-warn you that I do have an amateur interest in flags and heraldry... so please don't go too far in confusing that with any sort of nationalistic sentiment.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2538
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:18 am Post subject: m |
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 | Quote: | | I should also pre-warn you that I do have an amateur interest in flags and heraldry... so please don't go too far in confusing that with any sort of nationalistic sentiment. |
Yes but you have chosen a national flag as a symbol to represent you on this forum. I have no avater on this forum but use a pic of Leon Trotsky in other forums as my avatar.
This picture clearly sets out to anyone a political identity that represents me.
What interests me aventinian is how you can call me nationalist when I do not own ANY flags and never fly the things to represent anything, yet you proudly display the union jack alongside your name above all of the pics or symbols you could have chosen. When I do not have proscribed borders for Scotland only a desire for better and more local representation while you align yourself with a particular national entity.
Yet you are so sure that I am a nationalist and you are not. Seems to me that your facade is unravelling. |
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