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wallacesclaymore
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 94
Location: Edinburgh
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 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: |
Surely even you must admit that in a decentralised and dynamic Union of some form, all the supposed benefits of Scottish nationalism could be achieved with extra benefits...
Not that I support that sort of union necessarily.
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"Even I" admit that such a union will NEVER happen. We are apparently a civilised nation now, no more bloodshed, wars, claymores at the ready, daggers in our belts, axes in our hands, bows drawn so we may regain what is ours, our nation, our NATIONALITY and our independence.
Now we discuss "politics" in a "civil" manner, a dignified manner and for all our "civilised" discussion, and through such means, we COULD have been given such a union that YOU speak off quite some time ago. Did this happen??? Will this EVER happen??? Do you REALLY believe the "British/English" "Politicians" will ever really, truthfully, honestly and to any REAL degree give any real regard for SCOTLAND, her problems, issues, etc???
If you honestly believe this, I fear you are somewhat deluded. My reference to "looking after your own" stems clearly from a union that as I have stated before, was FORCED upon us. You can argue as much as you like this is not the case and we happily entered into this. We did not. We entered into this because the English threatened too, and could have (partly through our own stupidity and poor planning I admit) ruin us economically. We relied on the english for trade and when this was threatened, we signed the union agreement and have been SHAT ON ever since. Almost 300 years in fact, a good number before and unless we gain our indepedence, I fear, for another good number of years to come.
There is no amount of day-dreaming and discussion of some forward thinking/looking, super-improved union will change this.
THE ONLY THING THAT WILL CHANGE THIS IS SCOTTISH PEOPLE, WHO CARE ABOUT SCOTLAND, RUNNING SCOTLAND.
IF I WERE ENGLISH, I'D SAY THE SAME ABOUT SCOTLAND...I WOULD CARE MORE ABOUT "MY" COUNTRY THAN THAT OF ANOTHER...SIMPLE.
| Aventinian wrote: | | That's a bit of a rant, ain't it? Surely it is the duty of every human being to look after himself. |
That's not a rant. That's a considered and genuine response. A rant is a non-coherent, ill-considered, nonsensical pile of gibberish often displayed by condasending, wind up merchants with no real aim to provide any real substance or genuine interest in a debate other than to irritate the people who hold a different point of view from them...sound familiar???
As for "human nature to look after your own" - THIS IS MY ENTIRE POINT....the country is structured in such a way that OUR NEEDS (MY OWN, OUR OWN, SCOTLANDS OWN) are NOT catered for because SCOTTISH PEOPLE do not fully, completely, unequiviocally and 100% govern and rule SCOTLAND...again, a simple concept which you clearly understand but somehow wish to spin back against my point...
| Aventinian wrote: | | England is part of the UK. If we were going to host the Olympics in Glasgow, we'd be calling it 'our' bid, no doubt. |
Damnit, England's part of the UK??? I should have studied harder for that Higher A in geography which taught me so much yet so little about the geographic make-up of the United Kingdom. As for Glasgow hosting the olympics, I dont know about that since I was referring to MR BROWN'S MENTIONS OF "US", "OUR" and "WE" when he, is in fact, A SCOTSMAN. I also come from Edinburgh so don't quite understand your reference to Glasgow but there's a lot of stuff in your post(s) I dont quite understand....perhaps it's just me or perhaps its the spin you take/add on things. 
| Aventinian wrote: | | It may be human nature to look after our own. But what do you define as your own? Personally, I'd call a middle class Englishman more 'my own' than I would some fifteen year old Glaswegian ned. More importantly, regardless of it being human nature to look after your own family etc, I don't believe this entends as far as nations and people you don't know and share no common experiences with. |
First off, I dont know exactly what you are implying here but I am not 15, Glaswegian or a "ned" (dont you just love people using the latest buzzword for some dramtic effect) .
Just so you are happy I fit the criteria in to hold a discussion with you, I am a 27 year old analyst from Edinburgh. I don't believe the bullshit of a class system. To me, there is no "class system" in this life and no label some other person sticks on me will ever wash or hold water with myself. I know who I am, what I do, where I come from and where I am going. I know right from wrong and I know that someone labelling somebody else in any manner, regardless of wether I agree with the fundamental points they make under the label, is bullshit.
For your information sir, I carry 2 university degrees, a full Financial Planning Certificate accrediation (FPC1, 2 and 3) as per the CII, 7 highers, full compliment of standard grades and innumerate numbers of Scottish National Vocational Certs...SCOTVECS, for the unfamiliar. I also own my home valued in excess of £200,000 and I drive a new car which is less than one year old and which I own. I have a nice family and I have no criminal convictions. I am probably the type of person you suspect YOU are....perhaps thats a "middle class" person, perhaps not.
MY REASON FOR STATING THIS (UNDER THE VEIL OF WEB ANNONIMITY YOU SEEM TO CARE ABOUT) IS NOT TO "BRAG" AND SOMEHOW MAKE OTHERS FEEL INFERIOR DUE TO WHAT I HAVE/AM. MY REASON FOR STATING THIS IS SIMPLE. CLASS SYSTEMS AND LABELLING OTHERS IS DATED, "OLD HAT" AND IRRELEVANT.
YOU CAN SHOVE YOUR CLASS SYSTEM WHEN LABELLING ME. I WILL BE JUDGED, WHEN I SHOVE OFF THIS MORTAL COIL NOT BY WHAT I OWN, HOW MUCH CASH I HAVE IN THE BANK AND THE CERTIFICATES I HOLD BUT ON WHAT I HAVE DONE AND WHO I WAS....AND CERTAINLY NOT BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
So, if you wish to make a veiled insut at someone, attempt to conduct yourself with some decorum rather than blindly attempting to "rip the piss" when it does not become you. I will no doubt be subject to a smart rhetoric from you about how someone who is (insert whatever label you wish here) can speak/hold such opinions as I do/in the way I do.
My point here is, your introduction of somehow thinking you are morally/intellecutally/financially superior to someone you do not know is in fact a charade. You don't know me and (thankfully), I don't know you. The joy of living in this country over others is, regardless of the "class" your perceive someone to be, they will inveriably hold a different opinion and have reasons for doing so. So, getting back to your "point" ("I dont know about you but I...") - this has no relevance to this debate but I see myself in line with a working family man who is certainly nowhere near the bottom of the pay scale but still not UP HIS OWN ARSE ENOUGH TO THINK MONEY, POSSESSIONS AND THE LIKES MAKES ME A BETTER "PERSON", WITH ANY MORE VALIDITY WEIGHED ON MY OPINION, DUE TO MY "CLASS".....
And a final word on the subject of class. If you have read any Scottish history (presumably such a learned individual as yourself will have done so), you will be aware that the man, a "COMMON" man, a man with little wealth and no title (other than the mockery given to him by those with less than worthy to lick the muck from his boots), a man who is held by many in Scotland as the greatest ever Scotsman, the freedom fighter and liberator known as William Wallace (dropped the "Sir" on purpose you will notice) was in fact, judged as "common" and I'm sure if you'd have been around would have been seen as a lower class of man than yourself....
Funny how a lower class of person can make such a difference to the land known as Scotland. I guess that proves that the "nobles", who were far richer, educated and endowed with worldy goods and possessions are remembered well and the lower "class" of man has been forgotten doesn't it??? Ah, excuse me, I have that one squarely "ar*e about t*t" to coin a phrase.
| Aventinian wrote: | | On another front, I don't believe the law should essentially support human nature. After all, it is human nature to kill or attack someone who wrongs you. This is not endorsed by the law for a reason - it is unjust in the eyes of those who made it. |
Its NOT human nature to kill someone, rape someone, torture someone, somehow or in some way hurt/insult/abuse someone - it is in SOME people's nature...I would also suggest your point is out of context and bears zero relevance to the point I was making which was, very simply and clearly - human nature is to look after your own. This is generally intrinsic to all human beings from the "lowest class" to the "highest class" (can you relate to this???) and inveriably, naturally and without hesititation, most people would look after their "own" before someone else whom they have no affiliation/link/love/blood.
This, after this rather lengthier post than I had hoped to have to make in response to your expected smart arse comments, is the essence of what I am saying.
Simple: The BRITISH/ENGLISH government ultimately rule the country known as Scotland. As well as Wales and Northern Ireland (DO NOT START THE NONSENSE ABOUT PROVINCES ETC). Therefore, they are NOT best placed to look after MY interests as a Scottish person. They will ALWAYS look after england first, everybody else a poor second. Its NOT necessarily done in a sinister manner (though often is) but it is WHAT WILL HAPPEN.
Therefore, I would be extremely happy if the country known as SCOTLAND was indepedent. I would be delighted if, as it should have always been, the land known as SCOTLAND was a nation that looked after it's own affairs, sorted it's own problems, become a "something" in it's "own right" on the global stage and subsequently, reaped it's own rewards thereafter. AFTER ALL, WHO CARES MORE ABOUT SCOTLAND THAN SCOTTISH PEOPLE??????
END OF.
In future, do NOT make a veiled attempt at a poor insult and please come straight out and say what you mean. Don't sit on the fence, don't attempt to undermine people you don't know and DONT, attempt to classify me by means of classifying yourself in a manner that you really and honestly expect others to respect ... respect has to be earned and personally, I cannot see you EVER gaining any respect in this life if your attitude shown on this message board is anything to go by.
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SNP x 3 .... 3rd May 2007 |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4256
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:30 am Post subject: |
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WallaceClaymore:
I made no attempt to insult you and my post was nothing more than a reasoned and perfectly polite one. You have chosen to reply in a condescending and impolite way. Calling my ettiquette on this forum into question seems to be a dramatic example of the pot calling the kettle black.
I shall be responding to the other issues raised (Rinty's post too) at some later point. Again I've spent far too long on this forum to the neglect of other things.
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The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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Blackleaf
Confirmed TROLL
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 801
Location: Lancashire
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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He's been drinking, methinks.
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[img]http://home.att.net/~chuckayoub/black_sabbath/black-sabbath-1970.jpg
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Black Sabbath - 1970 |
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