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Rinty · Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject:

"I think i am correct in saying that neither decommissioning or joining the policing boards were part of the GFA."

You miss my point. The central plank of the GFA is power sharing and that was endorsed by the people of Ireland, north and south. That assembly, sharing power, run the PSNI. The main achievement of the peace process for nationalists was power sharing. It would stupid not to use that position to reflect their voters interests and their party policies on all areas that they can, including the police.

"sinn fein very much had a choice not to join the GFA and for once in recent times show some back bone in insisting others fulfilled their parts of the GFA and not being forced into moving even further into accepting british rule in ireland."

No, the GFA extended rule in Northern Ireland to it's own people through an assembly where nationalists would receive a share of power that reflected their share of the vote. Sinn Fein showed enormous "backbone" by doing just what you say. Even when some of the demands were unreasonable and not included in the GFA, even when the other parts of the GFA were not being implemented, they took brave positions that alienated some of their own supporters, in order to keep the peace process going.

The end result is what matters and so far the end result is peace, no bombs, no troops on the streets, cross border projects, devolution, nationalists representatives involved in all levels of devolved government.

You may be right that it will prove to be pointless but there is no doubt that it presents a better situation than before.

By taking on their role in PSNI and other issues, Sinn Fein are announcing that they are no longer a revolutionary party or a political spokesperson for an armed struggle. This seems to be making them more popular with catholic voters than before and that reads, to me, like an endorsement from the nationalist community who live in Northern Ireland.

I think you should give those people a chance to see if the new arrangement will work for them in the long term. For once it would be good to see the people allowed their say.

parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

the end result never has been about a six county power sharing government with reserved issues still held at westminster. the end result for republicans always has been about an end to the british presence in ireland full stop.

the GFA should be seen for exactly what it is, a stepping stone to this. Sinn fein could still exert political influence in forcing impartial policing without outright accepting the PSNI as a legitimate force. i, and many republicans, will never accept the PSNI as anything but another faction of british rule in ireland. this was unacceptable in the past and remains unacceptable now.

you also seem to be falling into the trap of thinking that as they are gaining more votes this is a good thing. it is not. selling off your principles may get you more votes but what is the point if your not actually going to change anything when you get in power.

I am also shocked that you see sf no longer being seen as being revolutionary as a good thing. Ireland needs revolution to bring about national liberation and socialism. how do you feel about their decisions to drop policies relating to increases in corporation tax?

the willingness of sf to drop these left wing policies worries me as much as their willingness to drop policies relationg to british rule in ireland.

the GFA should be used to better the lives of those in the six counties in the meantime but the end result should always be the formation of a 32 county socialist republic. supporting british policing in ireland does nothing but set this ideal back.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP

"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP

Rinty · Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:30 pm Post subject:

parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

sf in my opinion should have made very clear that the psni and any british police force will never be acceptable in ireland. there is no need for sinn fein to join the policing board. they can place political pressure on the police from outwith the board anyway.

by joining the board they have legitamised the role of a british police force in ireland. one which isnt even really that different from the old ruc in make up and its actions.

if for example a INLA volunteer etc were to take armed action against the british would sinn fein now have to label that action criminal? would they advocate turning that person over to be imprisoned? I certainly would never give the police any information which led to the imprisonment of an irish republican by the british and i would label anyone who did such a traitor to irish republicanism.

ten men starved themselves to death in prisons to be recognised as political prisoners and to state that their actions were not criminal, regardless of wither or not i agree with armed action at this time i still think its the legitimate right of those who do with to do so.
_________________
"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP

"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP

Morph · Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:29 am Post subject:

Cymro · Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:50 am Post subject:

Rinty makes some good points

You are right Parkie that instantes such as the Northern Bank Robbery showed clearly the politicisation of a policeforce. But the only way that will change is by the largest Republican Party finding itself in a position to directly influence it. Merely staying outside continues the status quo.

Northern Ireland has changed dramatically for the better in terms of its politics. The huge changes have only come about by playing the game - participating in elections, power shareing, joining the policing board.

I was just watching a programme about the IRA Internment Camp in County Kerry during WW2 now on Sky + and one quote struck me in an interview with a former IRA Prisoner while talking about the IRA during the time:

"We where idealists, though looking back we wheren't realists".

This I can't help feeling sums you up along with the likes of Republican Sinn Fein etc. It's all well saying you want to ignore the Police etc to achieve your aims, but it's achieved nothing so far. So as a real political party they have a duty to find a path that does work. It's all well saying "it's not only about winning elections". But, in a democratic system it's the only way of changing things to achieve your aims. Sad but true.

parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

the psni will never be anything but another part of british rule in ireland. its ingrained in the force and they will always be ultimately controlled by westminster.

sf could perfectly easily place political pressure on the police on any issue that arises by using the media etc etc.

joining the policing board only legitimises the force and thats exactly what the british and unionists want. a british police force will never be impartial and more so never be acceptable.

if the policing boards had any real power the sdlp influence would have been enough to keep them impartial anyway. the insistance that sf join was only about legitimacy.
_________________
"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP

"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP

Rinty · Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject:

And your alternative for the meantime? Is it that you think that the nationalists in NI should have to ghave a hostile police force and that any attempt to change them is pointless? Wouldnt it be better to at least try? Should scottish republicans be proscribing this to NI nationalists, telling them that they should have biased police force and that the power sharing assembly, who are the body in charge of the PSNI will never be able to chanmge the police from the former RUC?

If Sinn Fein find, as you predict ,that their presence on the police board does nothing to change the police, then that would be the time to boycott. If you are right and it is just a brit PR exercise designed to make it look like they are giving nationalists a say, then at least that will have to be backed up with improvements and concessions to be a sustainable claim.

What is there to lose?

I think you are wrong on the armed struggle. For the moment the nationalist community in NI and the people of the Republic have clearly demonstrated that they consider it to be over. If the republican movement is to achieve it's long term goal of a united irish republic, then it must stand together during significant developments. Thiose who dont are endangering the process and therefore are not acting legitimately as representatives of either republicans or the nationalist communities in NI.

parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

Rinty · Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject:

"I have already said that i dont see armed struggle as the way forward at the moment so you have confused me with that comment."

you said that Sinn Fein should not want to see an INLA volunteer prosecuted by police as you still see british as legitimate targets, that isnt an end to the armed struggle in my opinion.

Cymro · Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject:

parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

Cymro · Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject:

parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

if you are a republican you obviously believe that full equality and justice will never be achieved while the six counties remain part of the uk. the psni is one such institution which will always serve the interests if britain in ireland.

i will ask you if the policing boards are this great solution to the political policing of the PSNI why would the SDLP being on there not have changed anything, why do sinn fein need to join. surely this nationalist influence can bring about change?

eventually when sinn fein realise that the boards are nothing but a sham they will be in a no win situation as staying will legitamise the process and leaving will see them as bringing down the peace process and assembly when the DUP toys come out the pram again.

that is of course assuming sf politicians havent become too accustomed to their nice wage to even want to pull out of the boards.
_________________
"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP

"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP

Cymro · Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject:

So again you are asked what is the answer?

Staying out achieved.....nothing.

And actually as a Republican I'd argue you believe in an United Irish Republic. While accepting that institutions such as the PSNI are British in their ethos, there is nothing 'un Republican' in working from inside to change that. I'd accept that Republicans where going against what it is to be a Republican by lets say going to the House of Commons and taking an Oath to the Queen, or joining the PSNI and taking an Oath to her.

However nothing stops a Republican Party from trying to change the PSNI from being a force run by Britain/Unionists to be a body run by Northern Irish for the benefit of Northern Irish.

parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

but it wont change. and when it doesnt sinn fein will be backed into a nice little corner.

the answer for me is to take part in the assembly. run their departments as well as they can and stick to their left wing policies. show that socialism (or at least as close to it as they could achieve) can be workable but at the same time continue to make the point that this is only ever a stepping stone to a united ireland.

I dont see why the policing boards are such a big issue. sf can place as much political pressure on them from outside as they can from within. we will see in time what changes sf actually make but i am extrmely confident that my predictions about what will happen will be true.

its all very well say well you dont know unless you try but as i have said imagine the out cry at a later date if they decide to leave? playing right into unionist hands.
_________________
"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP

"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP

Cymro · Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:19 am Post subject:

In essence Parkie you want the status quo to continue. It's important for Republicanism that it is seen to be constructive and wants to see things change for the good. You would rather assume it won't work and stay still. seems more like fear of what might happen than ambition to me.