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Aventinian · Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:01 pm Post subject:

[quote="Dave Coull"]"Either way, I agree with him to some extent. I'd rather a proper government was not symbolically driven in this fashion and, as much as it pains me to say it, I would ultimately wish to see public buildings with no flags, heraldry or insignia. Despite the aesthetics, it is inappropriate."

Now that I could agree with. If the proposal had been that no flag, heraldry or insignia should fly over public buildings, I personally would have found that proposal acceptable. But that is NOT what was proposed.

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1101

A very large percentage of the population of the county of Angus (possibly a majority, although the authorities have not seen fit to test opinion on this) are opposed to removal of the Scottish flags which have flown over the county for longer than the lifetimes of our younger voters, to be replaced with an alleged "Angus" flag which is in fact a modern concoction. Agentmancuso accused this large percentage of the population of being "cranks". While I personally don't care too much if folk consider me a "crank" - after all, I would be in the company of some of the greatest figures of intellectual, scientific, and political history in being so regarded - I failed to see how such a large percentage of the population can be "cranks".

Aventinian then made a completely irrelevant remark about glass houses and stones. If A accuses B of being a C--t, and there is widespread agreement that A is himself a bit of a C--t, then the saying about people in glass houses not throwing stones might appear relevant. But it has no relevance to this discussion, since my point was precisely that both Agentmancuso and myself would probably be considered "cranks" by some.

Agentmancuso now writes ".....ramble ramble ramble.....But all of this is largely irrelevant.....ramble ramble ramble....."

Aventinian now says "you quoted out of context".

I agree, Agentmancuso did indeed quote out of context.

No doubt when Martin Luther nailed his Ninety Five Theses to a church door, the Pope sought to dismiss this as "ramble ramble ramble". Those who are unable to provide a detailed response to well argued points often do.

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1101

Aventinian wrote "I'm fairly sure you are a nationalist".

I have never claimed to be a nationalist, and I have objected when others used this term about me. Note that, when I post here on Our Scotland, there is no picture, no symbol, and certainly no flag, accompanying my name. Furthermore, although the moderators at one point decided to put "Nationalist" under my name, I strongly objected to that. I don't really like having ANY labels hung on me, but, after considerable discussion, the moderators came up with the somewhat less objectionable "independentista".

"perhaps making the mistake of assuming it is of the same vintage as the last grant of arms to the council?" - I made no such mistake. I don't give a damn about the last grant of arms to the council. This "Angus flag" is a modern invention because, as a flag, it only appeared in the last couple of months. No such flag ever existed before that. If they wanted an Angus flag, there are better ways to go about it than, without consultation, without considering any possible alternatives, suddenly springing this on an unsuspecting population, when no mention of their intention to do so was made in their election manifestoes a few months ago.

"if you want to be inclusive - fly the satire, Union Jack and the Angus flag. In fact, stick the UN flag up there too. Otherwise, be sensible and fly one with no emotive baggage" - this so-called "Angus flag" clearly DOES carry a lot of emotional baggage.

"I doubt the Baron of Prudhoe - if it is indeed his flag, which is very much in doubt - was any worse than any other Earl of Angus" - perhaps not. I took him as an example. But I am opposed to flying any of the symbols of feudal aristocracy. If they want an Angus flag, then let them have a competition to design one, and let them put the results of that competion out for consultation, instead of telling us "here it is, whether you like it or not".

Aventinian · Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject:

Aventinian · Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject:

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1101

Aventinian wrote "Regardless of whether your views are awful or sensible, you're no Martin Luther" - irrelevant, since I never claimed I was. The point is, for me, being dismissed as a "crank" is no big thing, since some of the great figures of history have been dismissed as "cranks". For this reason, your reference to glass houses and stones was also irrelevant.

I wrote "a very large percentage of the population of Angus" and Aventinian says "So?"

So it is not possible for a very large percentage of the population to be "cranks". They can be wrong, but they can't be "cranks". For instance, when the vast majority of the population believed that the world was flat, it was those who said no, the world is not flat, who were cranks. They were right, but they were cranks.

Aventinian · Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:56 am Post subject:

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1101

Aventinian wrote "You clearly didn't read or understand this: 'I think he in fact accused people who care altogether too much about some stupid blue and white rag to be "cranks" rather than anyone who may in fact approve or disapprove here.' "

I did both read and understand it, but that was in fact a later spin on what was originally suggested, as well as a later amendment on your part. The original implication was that anybody who cared about this at all was a "crank". And it is a fact that in this region a large percentage of the population, probably a majority, do care. My point was that the majority can be wrong (and frequently are) but the majority cannot be cranks. All "cranks" are, by definition, a small minority in _their_ time and place.

"the vast, vast, vast majority of cranks have most certainly found themselves, well, dead and forgotten" - of course. That is so obvious it should go without saying. Nevertheless, it remains a fact that this does not apply to _all_ who are dismissed as "cranks", and some of the greatest figures in science, history, etc have been so dismissed. That also ought to be obvious, but apparently wasn't, therefore I had to point this out.

"I don't care if you are a crank or not" - neither do I.

agentmancuso · Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject:

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1101

Agentmancuso wrote "Preferring one flag to another doesn't make you a crank. Thinking that flags matter much does make you a crank" - hhmmm. It's true I have a saltire flying over my garage. But I only put it there to annoy my next door neighbour. He was a total pain and so was his wife and they were both very devoted to the union jack, you see. That particular neighbour has since moved away, I'm delighted to say, and far more friendly neighbours have moved in next door. But I didn't bother to take the flag down. By this time it had attracted the attention of other folk besides the immediate neighbours, so I left it there, not so much as a flag of Scotland, as an assertion of my own presence. Of course I will take it down when Scotland becomes independent. Because then it might be seen as a sign of support for the government. And I wouldn't want that. Does that make me a crank? Frankly, I don't give a damn whether it does or not.

Aventinian · Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject:

So, in other words, you mainly see flags as a way of alienating people?

No wonder you prefer the politicised one flying instead of a neutral one...
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.'

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1101

I wrote "It's true I have a saltire flying over my garage. But I only put it there to annoy my next door neighbour. He was a total pain and so was his wife and they were both very devoted to the union jack, you see. That particular neighbour has since moved away, I'm delighted to say, and far more friendly neighbours have moved in next door".

Aventinian responds "you mainly see flags as a way of alienating people?"

Ah, now, be fair, that particular neighbour was the one who put up a flag as a way of alienating people, not me. It was only AFTER he had done so that I put up my flag. The fact that he raised his flag on the very day that the previous Pope died may have been pure coincidence, or he may (mistakenly) have thought that I was Catholic, and that by doing so he could annoy me. He didn't actually know much about me, because he never bothered to find out. For months I would say a polite "good morning" to him every day, and he would respond with frozen silence. I made many attempts to try to discover what his problem was and to try to discuss any grievances he had, but my attempts were always rejected. I did ask another neighbour, an elderly military gentleman who was, as it happens, the local organiser of "Save The Black Watch", what the guy's problem was, and got the reply "he's a complete arsehole, that's his problem". In the end, he and his wife split up, and went their separate ways, then she moved out because he wasn't paying maintenance for his unfortunate kids, and she couldn't pay the rent. He knew the folk who moved in after he left, and he had tried to poison them against me. But as my very good neighbour (now) says "I take folk as I find them. And I found Dave easy to get along with".

carol · Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:50 am Post subject:

Dave I can't see your logic to why you would bring the saltire down once we get independence

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1101

Carol wrote "Dave I can't see your logic to why you would bring the saltire down once we get independence".

I have a saltire flying on my garage. No, it's not a hen coop, and never was, that's just one of literally dozens of things that the News Of The World managed to get wrong! I put that flag up for a specific reason, and I will take it down for a specific reason. That's my personal choice. I'm not trying to make anybody else follow my example.

My reason is that, at present, it can act as a sign of support for independence. Nobody could possibly think that it is a sign of support for the British government. However, once we actually have independence, it is quite possible that some folk might (wrongly) take it as a sign of support for the Scottish government. And, like I said, I wouldn't want that. So it will come down. Like I said, just the flag at my place, I'm not trying to make anybody else follow my example.

carol · Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject:

I was thinking of flying a saltire from my double storey rabbit hutch Razz

I see no logic behind your reasoning moreso confusing when I read your opening post to this thread

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1101

Carol wrote "I see no logic behind your reasoning moreso confusing when I read your opening post to this thread".

But the opening post in this thread was about what the (one vote) majority group on Angus Council suddenly decided to do, despite there being nothing in their election manifestoes to that effect. They decided to take down the saltire, and to raise instead a flag which includes the arms of Baron Prudhoe, Sir Gilbert de Umfreville, who suppressed Angus on behalf of Edward the First of England (Hammer of the Scots). That was a truly crazy decision, myself and others continue to resist that decision, I think for some of those councillors the implications of their decision are only starting to sink in now, and there are indications that the one vote majority on this is melting away.

On the other hand, if I decide after independence that I will take the saltire off my own place, because it could be seen as a sign of support for some government, I will not be raising a flag which includes the arms of Baron Prudhoe, Sir Gilbert de Umfreville, who suppressed Angus on behalf of Edward the First of England. In fact I probably won't raise any flag at all. I may just live a quiet life without any public assertion of identity. That is entirely my own business. There is no contradiction in this at all.

carol · Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject:

the saltire's part of our identity, not a political flag and I cannot fathom out how or why it would be seen as a government flag after independence

Aventinian · Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject:

agentmancuso · Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: