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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1996
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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 Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| SLG wrote: | | Gaelic was not a minority language at that time. |
In the eyes of the people who were manipulating Gaelic identity for their own ends - i.e. to forment civil unrest - it was a minority language.
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1423
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | agentmancuso wrote: | | Cymro wrote: | | in the event of a military uprising the banning of culture and language is perfectly acceptable. |
Certain vested interests, in the attempt to overthrow parliamentary rule and replace it by absolute monarchy, started a civil war, in which they based their appeal on the cultural trappings of a minority group, and drew much of their support from that minority group. It can come as no surprise when that cultural group are singled out for a kicking later on. |
Still doesn't back up your claim that it's perfectly acceptable. Understandable maybe but acceptable? No chance.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Quote: | | I don't think Gaelic is in demise at present, relatively speaking. In so far as it is, it is because speakers of that language choose to speak another one. Their choice. |
The 2001 census clearly prooves you wrong in that respect. |
Which respect? |
Erm, the bit that states that there has been a fall in the number of those that can speak Gaelic?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | So you know what most non Gaelic speakers especially in those areas regarded as 'Gaelic lands' are do you? |
I know that ,if they have any such interest, they do a decent job of keeping it to themselves. |
Quite possible.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | A positive attitude, even in terms of "I wouldn't like to see it die" is still possession of the language. |
No it isn't. Possession of a language cannot be distinguished in any intelligible way from the ability to communicate in that language. Sentimentality counts for nothing. |
You can have a healthy attitude towards the language without being able to speak it. If we only relied on the speakers we'd be in even more trouble. It goes without saying that responsibility for promoting and saving a language lies in the hands of the majority, regardless of their linguistic abilities.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | it does show that people accept that it does have and deserves a presence in the life of that area. |
Languages cannot deserve anything. Only people can deserve things. |
I'd argue it can. In the same way an historicl building 'deserves' to be preserved.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | No the geographic area is very important for language and culture. |
Maybe. That has nothing to do with the language belonging to the land. Land cannot have possessions. Only humans have possessions. |
But it can be rooted to a land. I wouldn't have a campaign to ressurect or save the Welsh language in Norway as it was never there. Geographic locations do play a part.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | as far as I'm concerned the Welsh language is important part of Wales |
It's an inportant part of your conception of the identity of Welshness. That's a human concept, and exists only in the human head. |
Your being pendantic now. Wales only exists because of humans, Scotland only exists because of humans, the UK only exists because of humans. Without humans they'd merely be empty landmasses.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | In many parts of Wales the vast majority of parents of children who attend Welsh medium schools are non Welsh speakers. |
Good for them. We seriously considered sending our son to a Gaelic-medium nursery locally. |
Good to hear it.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | People who live in an area should be given every opportunity to learn Gaelic. Schools in certain areas should teach Gaelic to a fluent level alongside the English language. |
I agree. |
Good
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Bringing Nationalism into it has long been a tactic of those against minority languages in the UK. |
That maybe so, but as for many others Nationalism is the main (or sole) interest in promoting minority languages the point is redundant. |
I haven't argued othrwise. Im a Welsh Nash and as part of my politics I believe more should be done to safeguard and promote the language in Wales. However there are many others (proably more) that believe in the Union but also believe in preserving and promoting the Welsh language. Many have tried to polarise the issue on the language by seeing any legisation as some sort of sell out to the Nats. This is plainly wrong.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Though it suits you and others to use people who hold these sort of opinions as definitive proof of the attitudes of those who are fighting for the language it doesn't do the subject any favours. |
It suits you to ignore the fact that many people who express sentimentality towards minority languages have no real interest in the language per se but are keen to use it as a vehicle to establish and promote 'difference'. |
I'm not ignoring anyone. However, to use comments such as Babygaels as a way of attacking the concept to preserving the language is redicilous. If we had to explain every single opinion held by people who campaigned for a particular thing we'd be here all night. Comments like those by BG are not in anyway reflective of the reason most people give their time and effort to promoting minority language such as Gaelic. To try and link that is very unfair.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | And most circumstance it won't be delibretly excluding. |
So I'm a know-it-all for detecting no visible interest in Gaelic amongst most (non-facepainting) Scots, but you have inside knowledge of countless thousands of private conversations. Hmm. |
I can only speak from my experiences. It's a common story here to be told "I walked into a put in ....(place in Wales) and as soon as I walked in they all started speaking Welsh". Never mind the fact chances are they'd have been speaking Welsh before this pathetic person came in and they aren't important enough to warrant a change in language. In the same regards with Gaelic. To try and say that speaking Gaelic is excluding is pathetic to say the least.
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It's paranoia which leads to people thinking "they are all speaking another language. How rude". |
It's paranoia which leads people to make wildly emotive and sentimental claims about language. |
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If I was to say "Welsh is going to die tomorrw because of the English". I'd be talking through my arse. But to claim that the "Gaelic language is being eroded and is in serious danger and it deserves to be preserved" is not paranoia, it's facing up to a real danger. |
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1996
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | If I was to say "Welsh is going to die tomorrw because of the English". I'd be talking through my arse. But to claim that the "Gaelic language is being eroded and is in serious danger and it deserves to be preserved" is not paranoia, it's facing up to a real danger. |
I agree. But that does not mean that every pro-Gaelic statement is necessarily a sensible one, or that any pro-Gaelic legislation is necessarily acceptable.
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| I never said they where. It was you though that used BG's comments to attack what others where saying. I never claimed no one else shared her opinions. |
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1996
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | I never said they where. It was you though that used BG's comments to attack what others where saying. I never claimed no one else shared her opinions. |
No, but you leapt to her defence, despite the fact that she was, as usual, talking sub-racist gibberish.
You did so because BG appeared to taking a 'pro-Gaelic' position. Hence illustrating my last point.
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | Cymro wrote: | | I never said they where. It was you though that used BG's comments to attack what others where saying. I never claimed no one else shared her opinions. |
No, but you leapt to her defence, despite the fact that she was, as usual, talking sub-racist gibberish.
You did so because BG appeared to taking a 'pro-Gaelic' position. Hence illustrating my last point. |
I certainly did not leap to her defence. I happen to feel that she comes to her conclusions through an increadibly simplistic way. The reason I replied was to draw attention to your failure to understand the subject not to support her comments. |
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1996
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | I happen to feel that she comes to her conclusions through an increadibly simplistic way. |
It is her conclusions themselves that are simplistic, not the route she takes to get there.
| Quote: | | The reason I replied was to draw attention to your failure to understand the subject not to support her comments. |
I understand the subject perfectly well thank you.
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | Cymro wrote: | | I happen to feel that she comes to her conclusions through an increadibly simplistic way. |
It is her conclusions themselves that are simplistic, not the route she takes to get there.
| Quote: | | The reason I replied was to draw attention to your failure to understand the subject not to support her comments. |
I understand the subject perfectly well thank you. |
It didn't come across like that. You where using BGs comments as some sort of definitive proof of certain peoples attitudes within the language movement. I wqhole hearltedly disgree with her comments also your attempt at terrin g us all with the same brush. I also disagree with several other assertions you've made here. |
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1996
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | It didn't come across like that. You where using BGs comments as some sort of definitive proof of certain peoples attitudes within the language movement. I wqhole hearltedly disgree with her comments also your attempt at terrin g us all with the same brush. I also disagree with several other assertions you've made here. |
I don't remember saying that BG was a typical minority language activist.
I don't remember saying that BG was a typical nationalist either.
But she is representative of what you might call the ugly wing of both communities; one of my biggest concerns with nationalism is the willingness of the moderates to tolerate (i.e. indulge) the opinions of the ugly wing because they are 'on the same side'.
It's a bit unfair to say you disagree with other assertions I've made without giving me the chance to defend (or disown) them!
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | Cymro wrote: | | It didn't come across like that. You where using BGs comments as some sort of definitive proof of certain peoples attitudes within the language movement. I wqhole hearltedly disgree with her comments also your attempt at terrin g us all with the same brush. I also disagree with several other assertions you've made here. |
I don't remember saying that BG was a typical minority language activist.
I don't remember saying that BG was a typical nationalist either.
But she is representative of what you might call the ugly wing of both communities; one of my biggest concerns with nationalism is the willingness of the moderates to tolerate (i.e. indulge) the opinions of the ugly wing because they are 'on the same side'.
It's a bit unfair to say you disagree with other assertions I've made without giving me the chance to defend (or disown) them! |
You certainly implied it. You say I defended BG because I saw her as being pro Gaelic. Your where far from the truth with that comment, you assumed. In the same way you've given a lot of attention to the comments of one person. It's all well now saying she's representative of the ugly wing of these causes but what does that say? That not every Gaelic campaigner or Nat is the same? Not exactly ground breaking stuff! . You are being far from the truth to say that people are willing to tolerate these people. A person is entitled to voice an opinion in any political debate. However people would be more than happy to argue with them from my experiences.
We could be all night debating the 'ugly wing' or unionists and those who don't believe in preserving Gaelic. Would be a bit daft though. |
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1996
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | You certainly implied it. |
Where?
| Quote: | | A person is entitled to voice an opinion in any political debate. |
Yes.
| Quote: | | However people would be more than happy to argue with them from my experiences. |
Not in my experience. I find that the loonies general escape censure, because they are 'on the same side'.
| Quote: | | We could be all night debating the 'ugly wing' or unionists and those who don't believe in preserving Gaelic. Would be a bit daft though. |
Possibly yes, but that's the point of this forum isn't it? 
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Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
Hayek |
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| As a Welsh Nationalist and a campaigner for the Welsh language both through my work and voluntarily I can assure you people holding racist or xenophobic views aren't 'accepted'. |
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kevin04
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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I think there is a fair amount of interest Scottish gaelic in Scotland, maybe not in Glasgow or Edinburgh but esp the areas of where I'm from Angus and beyond.
In high school - our rector gave us a survery to fill out about classes, teachers, etc and one of the questions "which language would you like to be able to learn at high school?" Gaelic wasn't even on the list but the rector told us the results and that over 100 students put Gaelic down as a language they wanted to learn.
Over 100students in a School of 1000 to me is 10% have an interest in it, I was speaking to a few friends at the wekeend about schooling and my friend dani said to me he got 4s and 5s for German as he basically had no interest in it - German is probably a more useful langauge to learn on the worldstage but what my pal is saying that he's proud of heritage, culture and roots of his country and he wanted to learn that language instead of being told "sorry pal, French or German?"
The thing is some places just don't have the facilites to teach Gaelic which is sad, I met a lad from Butt of Lewis who was a Gaelic teacher and told him I was from Carnoustie and that I know of at least 5people who are interested in learning and I know 2people who can talk the language but the nearest classes are some 35miles away in Cowdenbeath or so |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| That's encouraging that there is such an interest in your area Kev. I think with learning a language, especially beyond a certain age, you really need to be motivated. It's less encouraging when there is a demand to learn that cannot be met. I'm sure there will be speakers in your area, it's just finding out about them and persuading them to help those of you who want to learn. Most Gaels I've met have been very keen to pass on the language even if in a very informal way rather than classes. |
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