Our Scotland - www.our-scotland.org

carol · Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:57 am Post subject:

Yes Dave I knew it was the anarchist bible when I came across the link. An anarchist is an anarchist not sure why they're trying to soften their image by using the term libertarian socialism, be interesting to see if libertarian socialists Gus and Kev see themselves as anarchists Confused

The Anarchist FAQ does give a good insight into anarchism etc also a better understanding of how an individual with these type of leanings could easily end up controlling the reins of a national organisation causing so much destruction with their attempt to influence others.

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 813

Carol wrote "An anarchist is an anarchist not sure why they're trying to soften their image by using the term libertarian socialism".

By using the expression "trying to soften their image" you are giving the (mistaken) impression that there is something new about the use of this term. But it is a statement of historical fact that the terms libertarian socialist and anarchist have been used more or less interchangeably since the very beginnings of the anarchist/libertarian socialist movement. It would be very boring to have to produce dozens of historical examples of this, but, as you must realise from both my own copiously-referenced essay at the beginning of this topic, and from you taking a look at the Anarchist FAQ, dozens of examples could indeed be produced.

"be interesting to see if libertarian socialists Gus and Kev see themselves as anarchists"

Your question has already been answered, Carol, in "Bella Caledonia", by Kev Williamson, in his article "Scotland's Libertarian Left".

Kev's article makes much of the significance of Dr James D. Young. Here is what I myself wrote regarding Dr James D. Young : "The one and only time I ever met Dr Young was at the Anarchist Summer School organised by Robert Lynn and others in Glasgow in 1993. A couple of hundred folk attended that anarchist summer school, and the discussion had to be divided up into 'workshops' on different subjects, with each workshop being 'introduced' briefly by a speaker or speakers then opened up for general discussion. One of these subjects was 'Anarchism and Scottish Nationalism'. That workshop was well attended. The subject was introduced by two speakers, myself and Dr James D. Young. I had been rather expecting that Dr Young and myself might be in disagreement, but, as it turned out, our contributions were complementary rather than contradictory. He spoke as a Marxist academic, I spoke as a working class anarchist, but we were broadly in agreement about seeing the so-called 'internationalism' of much of the left as little better than British imperialism wearing a Marxist cloak. Rather to my surprise, also, was finding that probably a majority of those attending agreed with the gist of what myself and Dr Young were putting forward".

Kev's article in "Bella Caledonia" concludes by pointing out that, while the Marxists are in disarray following the collapse of the SSP, that is not the case with the anarchists/libertarian socialists. "How else could you explain the remarkable decision by one of Scotland's most influential radical historians, Dr James D. Young - someone who all his adult life has been described as a Marxist thinker and writer - to state unequivocally, in this paper, that, for the first time ever, at the tender age of 76, he's happy to call himself an anarchist. I'd echo that."

RadgeJougal · Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject:

RadgeJougal · Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject:

carol · Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject:

agentmancuso · Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject:

carol · Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject:

carol · Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:43 pm Post subject:

oops jumped by Agent Wink

(ie my post Razz

)

at least you make more sense Agent!

RadgeJougal · Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject:

Joking aside, those that criticise, but don't like criticism, often become good dictators and camp guards. Fortunately, the wouldbe dictator in question doesn't have much luck with alliances.

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 813

Agentmancuso wrote "you have refused point blank to provide any alternative definition for 'libertarian' or 'socialist'".

You didn't actually ask me for a definition of "libertarian". Also, although you didn't actually ask me for a definition of "socialist" either, I did quote both from the Labour Party's statement of its aims (back in the days when it actually had any), and from Karl Marx, and said that, while both the Labour Party and the Marxists are in fact statists, there is nothing intrinsically statist about socialism as such. Those principles, to remind you, were "to secure for the workers by hand and by brain the full fruits of their labours" (the Labour Party) and "from each according to their ability to each acording to their need" (Marx).

Broadly speaking, socialism is a way of seeking to organise society so that, in theory at least, everyone can benefit from access to the means of production, distribution, and exchange, contributing what they can, and receiving (so far as possible) what they need. Authoritarian socialists (such as Marxists) seek to do this through the centralised State taking control of everything. Libertarian socialists seek to achieve it through smaller initiatives, through workers' control, communes, local community actions, etc etc. The hope and expectation would be that these projects and initiatives would co-operate together in a wider federation, but the initiative for this would have to come from the base, not from the top; from local initiative, not from the centre.

I realise this probably sounds vague. But like I said before, libertarian socialists tend not to go in for blueprints or five-year-plans or anything like that. And if I'm pressed for more details, I'm just going to say "read the Anarchist FAQ http://www.infoshop.org/faq/ or some of the books I reccomended". If some other folk want to do more than that, best of luck to them.

The subject of libertarian socialism was first mentioned here on this Our Scotland forum by Gus A. Since that thread had been "locked", I decided to post an essay which I had written in 1997. That essay, of three thousand four hundred words, not counting the references and the bibliography, is probably as good an introduction to the subject of at least the history of libertarian socialism, for anybody interested in the subject, as you are likely to find anywhere.

I have done what I set out to do. I posted my essay. I have mentioned several books for anybody who happens to feel like doing further reading. And of course I have pointed out that the Anarchist FAQ is the best on-line source of information on libertarian socialism. I don't feel like doing much more than that. A couple of the authors of the Anarchist FAQ spent several years arguing on-line with folk of more-or-less the same views as Agentmancuso. Such arguments can, quite literally, go on forever, with neither side having the slightest possibility of actually "converting" the other. I doubt if the moderators of this Our Scotland forum would welcome a discussion on one subject, and a subject not particular to Scotland at that, going on indefinitely. But, even if they would, it isn't my intention to get into that sort of endless discussion. Of course this will lead to accusations of avoiding debate. Well, better to get these out of the way now, rather than after having wasted a couple of years on an argument that is getting nowhere. Quite simply, life is too short, and there are other things to be done.

carol · Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject:

Dave found the reading of the Anarchist FAQ interesting, although a bit out of my depth.

as a retired community activist Rolling Eyes

I strongly believed working with local initiatives, saving public halls etc, barmies with local councillors and officials at public meetings Rolling Eyes

the angel that I am Wink

was notorious at one time for having my name and pic in the local papers, generally on the wrong side of the council Razz

thankfully for them I've been quiet for a while!

Local groups tend to stay local for some strange reason, whether it is territorial who knows. Look after their own kind of stuff.

I still can't grasp the ideology of anarchism if anything reading the Anarchist FAQ I find their behaviour quite destructive, and the tag libertarian socialism is being used to 'soften' the image.

interesting topic though Wink

agentmancuso · Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:39 pm Post subject:

RadgeJougal · Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:29 pm Post subject:

Fascinating essay.

Are you Peter Dow in disguise?

Holebender · Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:52 pm Post subject:

Why do I keep seeing the same "new" comment over and over? Is it being deleted and reinstated? If that's the case, why don't you take the hint, Radge?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso