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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1269
Location: Here or There
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 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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It's not 1919 any more.
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1409
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Red Justice wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | Can we expect the PIRA to don blue berets and undertake an international peace keeping mission any time soon?
Does the legitimate government of the Republic of Ireland consider the Irish Republican Army as the legitimate army of the State? |
I doubt it the provos gave up their weapons and sold out to administer British rule from Stormont.
The second point you make is irrelevant the Irish Free State gave up the constitutional claim to the north of Ireland so should have no say in the legitamacy of Ogaigh naEireann . Bertie Ahern and co do not live in the sectarian statelet in the Wee Six.
Could I suggest some peacekeeping end British military occupation and send the MI5 Brits on their way out of their new building in the north and back home to Britain.
In case anybody is unaware we should remember MI5 had also intended to set up camp in Glasgow. No coincidence to keep a snoop on us potentially rebellious Scots. |
So what do you suggest? That the armed conflict in Northern Ireland should be allowed to continue under the pretext that it's 'heroic'?
While the establishment of Northern Ireland in 1919 clearly was cynical by the British State that doesn't change the fact that in 2008 it is a legitimate border and forms part of a legitimate (though not always moral) state in the world. The Irish Republic in a Referendum (not just the Government of Aherne) withdrew any claims in their constitution to the North. This was to enable a far more meaningful peace agreement to go through. What would you have prefered ? Violence eventhough it didn't achieve anything? Some supporter of an Irish Republic you are!
Northern Ireland clearly still has huge issues in terms of it's secterian society etc, but how can violence be justified in this situation? Only with actual community cohesion and actual rebuilding can this vile element begin to be erradicated, not by some fanstasists in Scotland banging a drum thinking violence one day would have got the Brits out of Ireland!
Idiots! |
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iainmhor
Nationalist
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 127
Location: BELLY OF THE BEAST
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | Can we expect the PIRA to don blue berets and undertake an international peace keeping mission any time soon?
Does the legitimate government of the Republic of Ireland consider the Irish Republican Army as the legitimate army of the State? |
The Provos in their time certainly did their bit for international anti-imperialism. FARC, PLO, ETA and so on. The IRA provided the bulk of the Connolly Column to fight fascism in Spain.
On your second point- no. They would be held to be an illegitimate government according to the old Republican position. |
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Red Justice
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 363
Location: Dun Deagh
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | Red Justice wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | Can we expect the PIRA to don blue berets and undertake an international peace keeping mission any time soon?
Does the legitimate government of the Republic of Ireland consider the Irish Republican Army as the legitimate army of the State? |
I doubt it the provos gave up their weapons and sold out to administer British rule from Stormont.
The second point you make is irrelevant the Irish Free State gave up the constitutional claim to the north of Ireland so should have no say in the legitamacy of Ogaigh naEireann . Bertie Ahern and co do not live in the sectarian statelet in the Wee Six.
Could I suggest some peacekeeping end British military occupation and send the MI5 Brits on their way out of their new building in the north and back home to Britain.
In case anybody is unaware we should remember MI5 had also intended to set up camp in Glasgow. No coincidence to keep a snoop on us potentially rebellious Scots. |
So what do you suggest? That the armed conflict in Northern Ireland should be allowed to continue under the pretext that it's 'heroic'?
While the establishment of Northern Ireland in 1919 clearly was cynical by the British State that doesn't change the fact that in 2008 it is a legitimate border and forms part of a legitimate (though not always moral) state in the world. The Irish Republic in a Referendum (not just the Government of Aherne) withdrew any claims in their constitution to the North. This was to enable a far more meaningful peace agreement to go through. What would you have prefered ? Violence eventhough it didn't achieve anything? Some supporter of an Irish Republic you are!
Northern Ireland clearly still has huge issues in terms of it's secterian society etc, but how can violence be justified in this situation? Only with actual community cohesion and actual rebuilding can this vile element begin to be erradicated, not by some fanstasists in Scotland banging a drum thinking violence one day would have got the Brits out of Ireland!
Idiots! |
If any Idiots exist it is those in London that thought in times past that dividing with partition the historic 9 Counties into six on the basis of religion or loyality to Britain would result in a peaceful outcome.
I do not glorify violence but I do recognise the right of insurgents to bear arms in any country where military occupation exists. There is not even a UN peacekeeping force in Ireland but Brit soldiers and their presence that cannot be justified on the basis of their rule of law of British government and monarchy they represent. I covered already that the 26 County Irish Republic gave up constitutional claim to the north after the good friday agreement. What is meaningful about a peace agreement that does not solve the root cause of the conflict? Sectarianism has not subsided take a look at the so-called peace wall in Belfast it gets higher.
You wonder what I would of preferred perhaps a statement of withdrawl from the British and UN troops being deployed is a possibility during the establishment of an All Ireland referendum and not two separate referendums north and south. Conquest of Ireland by England was not morally correct 800 years ago and occupation today cannot be justified. Better the Irish people are allowed to decide as a unit. It is very interesting how yourself or others here choose to throw the accusation of violence or supporter of the Ra at me. The reality is you know little about what I respect or support. I actually have much respect for the INLA who have remained on ceasfire since the Irish people in the north voted to endorse the GFA while the Irish Republican Socialists maintain the right to never support the GFA or Stormont. The INLA show courage and interest that violence today should not happen and any self-respecting Republican in Ireland or Scotland should feel same. Any heroism is a fact of Irish history and the rebellion that goes back 800 years since English invasion of the island of Ireland and best this be respected.
A more meaningful peace would be for the British to re think about their military presence and the right of the Irish as a unit to decide the future of the island. That is not a view from someone who wants violence for the Irish far from it.
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1409
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If any Idiots exist it is those in London that thought in times past that dividing with partition the historic 9 Counties into six on the basis of religion or loyality to Britain would result in a peaceful outcome. |
I've made the important bit here bold. This is now 2008 and while partition may not have been the most just decision in 1919 it was made. In 2008 the people of Northern Ireland have a right to decide for themselves regardless of politics what they wish to see happening to it. That is a good thing.
| Quote: | | I do not glorify violence but I do recognise the right of insurgents to bear arms in any country where military occupation exists. |
This is where your immature take on Northern Irish Politics begins to dig you a little hole. You claim to support the right of people to take up arms if they are under military occupation. Ok, so who defnines this military occupation? Northern Ireland is after all a part of the United Kingdom. As a result of this the state can place soldiers in that pieace of land. This isn't some occupited terrotiry a la Gaza or the Golan Hights we've got here, but a part of the UK.
Most people in Northern Ireland want to remain a part of the UK. surely using your logic it would accpetable for Loyalists to bare arms if the entire island of Ireland where allowed to vote on reunification? After all, why should the people of Cork or Dublin be allowed to force an outcome on the people of Belfast?
| Quote: | | There is not even a UN peacekeeping force in Ireland but Brit soldiers and their presence that cannot be justified on the basis of their rule of law of British government and monarchy they represent. |
Of course there aren't UN Peacekeepers there. Do you honestly see a member of the UN Security Council allowing foreign troops on to it's land? There is an argument why it should have been there in the past, but now? Why?
The British Soldiers and the State have as much right to be in Northern Ireland as they do to be in Scotland, Wales or England. Military Campaign came to an end last year.
| Quote: | | I covered already that the 26 County Irish Republic gave up constitutional claim to the north after the good friday agreement. What is meaningful about a peace agreement that does not solve the root cause of the conflict? |
It makes more inroads towards stopping that root cause than anything you've suggested so far! How does supporting the rights of people to take up arms stop the conflict? Since 1997, be it with a load of hurdlles we've now seen Sinn Fein take a part in governing Northern Ireland. Far more was achieved by this than in the 78 years between 1919 and 1997.
The people of the Irish Republic voted for this, so going back to your idea of a vote for the whole of Ireland. If the majority of RoI voted for an end to their claim of NI and the majority of NI people voted for the GFA surely that is an Ireland wide vote on a linked issue. So whats wrong with that?
| Quote: | | Sectarianism has not subsided take a look at the so-called peace wall in Belfast it gets higher. |
Would forcing reunification tomorrow stop it then would it? Or, as is more likely would the need an even high wall?
| Quote: | | You wonder what I would of preferred perhaps a statement of withdrawl from the British and UN troops being deployed is a possibility during the establishment of an All Ireland referendum and not two separate referendums north and south. |
Again, an All Ireland referendum. Why, they are two different states. No way would either side have accpeted the results if it was one referendum for the whole of Ireland. The UN presence was a no brainer, the UK forces had everyright to be there as I said earlier, it's a part of the UK like Scotland, Wales and England. Not an occupying force at all. What you want is something which would never never never have worked. For one thing its undemocratic.
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Conquest of Ireland by England was not morally correct 800 years ago and occupation today cannot be justified. |
Thats why we have the vote. Wales was occupited by England in 1282. I am a Welsh Nash as I don't agree with the Union. However I want to see Independence actually work for Wales so know that I need to support of most Welsh to get it to work. For Northern Ireland to join the RoI a majority support in NI is needed, otherwise it's fail badly - again, some Republican you are!
| Quote: | | Better the Irish people are allowed to decide as a unit. |
Don't you think that forcing a decision on the majority of the British people in NI might make things a little bit worse? Increasing secterian conflict, even destabilising the Republic?
| Quote: | | It is very interesting how yourself or others here choose to throw the accusation of violence or supporter of the Ra at me. |
You said you supported the right of people to arm themselves not me.
| Quote: | | The reality is you know little about what I respect or support. |
Neither do you clearly.
| Quote: | | I actually have much respect for the INLA who have remained on ceasfire since the Irish people in the north voted to endorse the GFA while the Irish Republican Socialists maintain the right to never support the GFA or Stormont. The INLA show courage and interest that violence today should not happen and any self-respecting Republican in Ireland or Scotland should feel same. |
The INLA where even stranger than the IRA. Merely a protest army, made up of pissed off IRA men. Why are you brining the Scots into this now? Whats it got to do with them?
| Quote: | | A more meaningful peace would be for the British to re think about their military presence and the right of the Irish as a unit to decide the future of the island. That is not a view from someone who wants violence for the Irish far from it. |
Yes it is. You're ignoring the democratic will in Northern Ireland and since you've already said you supoort the right for people in occupied countries to arm themselves you are clearly happy for this to take place.
I'm all for seeing a break up of the UK, I'd love to see Ireland Reunified, but I only wish to see that happen with a firm democratic mandate both from the people of Northern Ireland and from the people of Eire. Two refferendums, one for the Northern Irish to see if they accept Reunification and one for the Republic to see if they would be happy for NI to join the RoI. |
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1409
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| iainmhor wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | Can we expect the PIRA to don blue berets and undertake an international peace keeping mission any time soon?
Does the legitimate government of the Republic of Ireland consider the Irish Republican Army as the legitimate army of the State? |
The Provos in their time certainly did their bit for international anti-imperialism. FARC, PLO, ETA and so on. The IRA provided the bulk of the Connolly Column to fight fascism in Spain.
On your second point- no. They would be held to be an illegitimate government according to the old Republican position. |
Yes most of the people of the Irish Republic as well as Northern Ireland accept the existence of the Republic of Ireland. So why is this minority more important than the majoirity of those who live there? |
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Red Justice
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 363
Location: Dun Deagh
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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I do not see the logic in the people of NI separated by an artificial border to the 26 County Irish Republic voting in a different referendum. You might as well allow the nationalist people of South Armagh a referendum to vote themselves out the sectarian statelet, the British or their green jackets and helmets and guns were never wanted there anyhow. Occupation to me is troops on the streets it is not merely about a claim from Britain to the six counties of Ulster. If the British army wandered streets of Scotland I would accept resistance to them in Alba also. Ireland is an island and the stranger from across the water can never rule there peacefully. Opposition to an All Ireland referendum is clear the people of the island of Ireland outnumber the Unionists and British rule would loose such a referendum. Any argument about threats from drugdealers and MI5 agents bearing weapons and name of the crown resisting a United Ireland is weak if the British and MI5 left N of Ireland the Irish people as a whole could look after security not a problem.
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Red Justice
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 363
Location: Dun Deagh
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Let me correct myself about occupation even if British troops are confined to barracks and not on the streets their miltary presence in N Ireland still exists and to me is a form of occupation. Take it from me Cymro the Brit army are resented in N Ireland I worked in South Armagh late 1990s for a short period as an International Voluntary Youth Worker I met locals.
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1409
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I do not see the logic in the people of NI separated by an artificial border to the 26 County Irish Republic voting in a different referendum. |
The logic being it's 2 different countries at this moment in time! Whether it was right to create NI in the first place or not, in 2008 it's here and most within it at the moment want it to be British. You have to first of all respect that democrwcy before getting anywhere with regards reuniting the island. Otherwise you will never ever ever see Ireland united again!
| Quote: | | You might as well allow the nationalist people of South Armagh a referendum to vote themselves out the sectarian statelet, the British or their green jackets and helmets and guns were never wanted there anyhow. |
Indeed, Id be all for allowing the people of Fermanah and other areas bordering NI to descide on whether to move the border to allow them to join the RoI. That is after all democracy!
| Quote: | | Occupation to me is troops on the streets it is not merely about a claim from Britain to the six counties of Ulster. |
Thats only partial definition of 'occupation. Besides, I was in Belfat last year. Ddin't see 1 soldier on the street. The Military Operations in the province came to an end finally last year. Thanks to the changing politics of Northern Ireland! Therefore even using your narrow definition of 'occupation' because troops are no longer pounding the streets keeping the peace occupatuion is now over.
| Quote: | | Ireland is an island and the stranger from across the water can never rule there peacefully. |
Well most in Northern Ireland want those strangers ruling over them. With the use of the ballot box I strongly believe people in time will be happy to see the status of NI change to eventually joining the RoI. What your#e advocating will never enable a peaceful Ireland.
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Opposition to an All Ireland referendum is clear the people of the island of Ireland outnumber the Unionists and British rule would loose such a referendum. |
It's two different countries at the moment. The majority of both sides want something different. It's a no brainer.
| Quote: | | Any argument about threats from drugdealers and MI5 agents bearing weapons and name of the crown resisting a United Ireland is weak if the British and MI5 left N of Ireland the Irish people as a whole could look after security not a problem. |
Most of Northern Ireland are proudly British but want to get on with their lives. They aren't MI5 officers, they aren't armed to the teeth, they aren't junkies or dealers. They merely find themselves supporting the Crown more that the RoI.
Ignore those and Ireland as a whole will suffer. |
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1409
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Red Justice wrote: | | Let me correct myself about occupation even if British troops are confined to barracks and not on the streets their miltary presence in N Ireland still exists and to me is a form of occupation. Take it from me Cymro the Brit army are resented in N Ireland I worked in South Armagh late 1990s for a short period as an International Voluntary Youth Worker I met locals. |
Listen, I'm not stupid. Ofcourse the British Army are resented by a huge load of people, from both sides. But wake up in 2008 will you. Most of NI regard themselves as British. That is the end of the matter where democracy is concerned. You can't ignore that at this moment in time. Makes you no better than the people who ignored the will of the majority in Ireland in the 1800's and the 1900's.
You seem to assume that hanging about in South Armah in the 90's makes you know the ins and outs. Seems you have a hell of a lot more you need to learn about the place. |
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Red Justice
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 363
Location: Dun Deagh
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | Red Justice wrote: | | Let me correct myself about occupation even if British troops are confined to barracks and not on the streets their miltary presence in N Ireland still exists and to me is a form of occupation. Take it from me Cymro the Brit army are resented in N Ireland I worked in South Armagh late 1990s for a short period as an International Voluntary Youth Worker I met locals. |
Listen, I'm not stupid. Ofcourse the British Army are resented by a huge load of people, from both sides. But wake up in 2008 will you. Most of NI regard themselves as British. That is the end of the matter where democracy is concerned. You can't ignore that at this moment in time. Makes you no better than the people who ignored the will of the majority in Ireland in the 1800's and the 1900's.
You seem to assume that hanging about in South Armah in the 90's makes you know the ins and outs. Seems you have a hell of a lot more you need to learn about the place. |
Sorry excuse me Cyrmro I did not merely hang about I stayed in the community during the Youth work. I have carried out International voluntary work in three area of the island of Ireland, visited most of the counties of Ireland, stayed with a family in Dublin for a number of weeks and been to Ireland numerous times until earlier this decade.
I think I have got to know Ireland pretty well as someone with some Irish blood in me. You are correct however many people on both sides of the community did not like the soldiers in the north.
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1269
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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People in Scotland, England, and Wales all live on one island (mostly). Should there be an all-Britain referendum on the future of the UK? What if a majority in Scotland vote for independence but a UK majority votes for retaining the UK? Should Scotland's population be bound by that?
Think very carefully before trying to gain the outcome you favour by gerrymandering the constituency.
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1409
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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You got to know a bit of South Armah. So how does that enable you to tell the people of the Shankill, or East Belfast, and of the majority of the rest of Northern Ireland that you know what's best for them?
As a Community Worker I assume you'd have tried to enable community cohesion and development? Now as a part of that you empower communities to make decisions for themselves on the future of their community (I happen to work in that field right now). So how are you then able to link that with "lets have an Ireland wide referendum to descide on your future".
Put it like this, if the shoe was on the other foot. Ireland was mostly run by the UK, with a small corner of it being an Irish Republic. Would you allow a Island wide referendum on the possibility of reunifing Ireland under the British Crown?
What about a Great Britain wide referendum on Scottish Independence? After all, we are all 1 island! |
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Red Justice
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 363
Location: Dun Deagh
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | You got to know a bit of South Armah. So how does that enable you to tell the people of the Shankill, or East Belfast, and of the majority of the rest of Northern Ireland that you know what's best for them?
As a Community Worker I assume you'd have tried to enable community cohesion and development? Now as a part of that you empower communities to make decisions for themselves on the future of their community (I happen to work in that field right now). So how are you then able to link that with "lets have an Ireland wide referendum to descide on your future".
Put it like this, if the shoe was on the other foot. Ireland was mostly run by the UK, with a small corner of it being an Irish Republic. Would you allow a Island wide referendum on the possibility of reunifing Ireland under the British Crown?
What about a Great Britain wide referendum on Scottish Independence? After all, we are all 1 island! |
I was only giving my view Cyrmro the Irish people should make any constitutional decision on Ireland not me or elsewhere like England.
A Great Brit referendum is not an issue, Scotland is a nation in ethnic terms. The Scottish people decide by a vote of signatures or mandate through desire for a referendum on independence. Scotland was independent before the union the one island argument is meaningless for a Welsh nationalist you have weird ideas if you think a great chunk of the overwhelming English population should determine how we govern ourselves in Scotland.
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1409
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I was only giving my view Cyrmro the Irish people should make any constitutional decision on Ireland not me or elsewhere like England. |
Irish people would be allowed to make decisions on Ireland - the Northern Irish on Northern Ireland and the Republic people on the Republic of Ireland until the day when they decide that they want to be reunited.
What you want to do is force the will of one state on the island of Ireland on to the people of another.
| Quote: | | A Great Brit referendum is not an issue, Scotland is a nation in ethnic terms. |
No more 'ethnically' a nation thatn Northern Ireland is. Many different ethnicities regard themselves as Scottish.
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The Scottish people decide by a vote of signatures or mandate through desire for a referendum on independence. |
So why shouldn't the Northern Irish?
| Quote: | | Scotland was independent before the union the one island argument is meaningless for a Welsh nationalist you have weird ideas if you think a great chunk of the overwhelming English population should determine how we govern ourselves in Scotland. |
Erm, you've lost it here. I don't think the people of England should decide on what Scotland should do, or Wales, or Northern Ireland or anyone else. Scotlands constitutional future is a matter for Scotland and Scotloand alone. The same goes for Northern Ireland, it is in the hands of the people of Northern Ireland and them alone. It's you arguing otherwise not me! |
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Anthropos
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 323
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | People in Scotland, England, and Wales all live on one island (mostly). Should there be an all-Britain referendum on the future of the UK? What if a majority in Scotland vote for independence but a UK majority votes for retaining the UK? Should Scotland's population be bound by that? |
No they should not, but what if a majority in Scotland voted to retain the UK and a majority in England voted for its dissolution? You would have to agree that in those circumstances it should also be dissolved even if the majority in Scotland opposed it.
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iainmhor
Nationalist
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 127
Location: BELLY OF THE BEAST
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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Northern Ireland can never be a legitimate state in the eyes of Republicans. It is for the whole people of Ireland to decide on its future. We reject the unionist veto over Irish Sovereignty.
I think most republicans are astute enough to realise that we have to exhaust the democratic political route before any resumption of war can be envisaged, planned and succesfully executed.
The onus is on the Brits to deliver a peaceful and negotiated withdrawal when the political road reaches the end of the line. |
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Cymro
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1409
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Northern Ireland can never be a legitimate state in the eyes of Republicans. |
I never expected that it would. Thats why we have thiese things called elections though. Northern Ireland is for now a part of the UK. The only way you can change that is my ensuring a majority in Northern Ireland that would like that to be changed.
| Quote: | | It is for the whole people of Ireland to decide on its future. |
Eventually maybe. Not yest though. Firstly it's up to the people of Northern Ireland. Then you can go ahead and hold a refferendum to ensure an island wide support for the reunification.
| Quote: | | We reject the unionist veto over Irish Sovereignty. |
Good for you. But you can only change it by the power of the vote, nothing else.
| Quote: | | I think most republicans are astute enough to realise that we have to exhaust the democratic political route before any resumption of war can be envisaged, planned and succesfully executed. |
Oh blimey. Now I know that I'm talking with a fantasist, a 15 year old one maybe? Am I warm?
Most Republicans will be senisble enough to realise that demopcracy is the ONLY way of achieving an United Ireland, and they also realise it isn't going to be easy. The democtratic process will reflect the will of the majority while enabling minorities to campaign. The onus is then on the minority to gain enough support to become a majority. So unless you're being stopped from participating in the democratic process it clearly can never reasonably be exhausted.
If you are being kept out by others, then you look at going back to the Civil Rights arguments. Soething which would have achieved far more since the 60's than violence ever could!
Secondly, a resumption of war by Republicans could never ever ever be successful. To claim otherwise is stupid and again, the stuff of fantasy. But, it could move things backwards if thats what you want!
| Quote: | | The onus is on the Brits to deliver a peaceful and negotiated withdrawal when the political road reaches the end of the line. |
No, the onus is on all key stakeholders - the British State, the Irish Republic, Republicans, Nationalists, Unionists and Loyalists as well as the likes of the USA. Looks like I may have described the Good Friday Agreement there!
No withdrawl will ever take place while the majority dictate otherwise. You need to learn about securing a majority in NI before Ireland will ever reunite. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4276
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Cymro wrote: | | While the establishment of Northern Ireland in 1919 clearly was cynical by the British State |
1920, and I don't think it was remotely cynical. In fact, I think it saved the island of Ireland from the biggest war in its history.
| Quote: | | that doesn't change the fact that in 2008 it is a legitimate border and forms part of a legitimate (though not always moral) state in the world. The Irish Republic in a Referendum (not just the Government of Aherne) withdrew any claims in their constitution to the North. This was to enable a far more meaningful peace agreement to go through. What would you have prefered ? Violence eventhough it didn't achieve anything? Some supporter of an Irish Republic you are! |
Full-on Republicans don't recognise the 26 county state any more than they recognise the 6 counties. Their Irish Republic consists of the entire island. Indeed, many are quite unhappy when Ireland/Éire (ie, the state in the south) uses the 'Republic of Ireland' as a name.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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William_Cleland
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 777
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: |
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It was 1921 when it came into effect.  My grandfather always used to say that Northern Ireland was bought and paid for by the sacrifices made by the 36th Ulster Division at the Somme with the implication being that otherwise the powers that be in London wouldn't have given a toss what happened to the Ulster Unionists. Think there is a lot of truth to that perception. A wee reminder of how things looked to Rudyard Kipling in 1912:-
Ulster
THE DARK eleventh hour
Draws on and sees us sold
To every evil power
We fought against of old.
Rebellion, rapine, hate,
Oppression, wrong and greed
Are loosed to rule our fate,
By England’s act and deed.
The Faith in which we stand,
The laws we made and guard,
Our honour, lives, and land
Are given for reward
To Murder done by night,
To Treason taught by day,
To folly, sloth, and spite,
And we are thrust away.
The blood our fathers spilt,
Our love, our toils, our pains,
Are counted us for guilt,
And only bind our chains.
Before an Empire’s eyes
The traitor claims his price.
What need of further lies?
We are the sacrifice.
We asked no more than leave
To reap where we had sown,
Through good and ill to cleave
To our own flag and throne.
Now England’s shot and steel
Beneath that flag must show
How loyal hearts should kneel
To England’s oldest foe.
We know the war prepared
On every peaceful home,
We know the hells declared
For such as serve not Rome—
The terror, threats, and dread
In market, hearth, and field—
We know, when all is said.
We perish if we yield.
Believe, we dare not boast,
Believe, we do not fear
We stand to pay the cost
In all that men hold dear.
What answer from the North?
One Law, one Land, one Throne
If England drive us forth
We shall not fall alone!
If the archduke hadn't been shot dead in Sarajevo there is a very good chance that Irish Home Rule would have happened (along with Scottish Home Rule incidentally) and it is worth remembering that the sizable portion of the British establishment who were aligned with the Liberals at the time saw no compelling need to make any special accommodation for Ulster. History could easily have gone in a very different direction. |
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