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parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

cymro anti agreement groups such as the IRSP recognise that military conflict is not the way forward now and they also recognise that unification wont happen solely from the military actions of a select view but by a mass movement across the island.

being anti agreement doesnt mean being pro armed conflict as you seem to be portraying. its also possible to be both pro and anti agreement yet still greatly disagree with the many and varied concessions sinn fein have made so power sharing can work.

imo participation in a british administration in ireland is only any way acceptable if those involved actually move towards socialist policies (sinn fein actually do still try and maintain they are a socialist party) sadly though they have failed to do this and we will be a long time waiting on the SDLP to move in that direction as they are all about never upsetting the establishment.

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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP

"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP

parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

Red Justice · Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject:

Cymro · Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject:

Aventinian · Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject:

Aventinian · Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject:

parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

Cymro · Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:09 am Post subject:

No Parkie, it's clearly you not reading whats down in front of you, both written by me and even more worryingly you yourself. It's you that said:

"unification wont happen SOLELY from the military actions of a select few" not me. This clearly suggests that military actions will or can play some part in achieving this goal. Whereas history will show you clearly that is doesn't at all. Not one bit of unification was achieved through violence. It was only when the likes of the INLA and the PIRA called a ceasefire did we see these much needed developments. Any hint of violence instantly puts a strain on the process of giving power on the future of Ireland to those who live in Ireland.

I'm not saying that those who spent time in jail for their actions know nothing about politics in Ireland. What I'm saying is that little fantasists like you, Iain Mhor and Red Justice making comments like you have on this thread are showing huge lack of awareness of Irish Politics.

The likes of Martin McGuinness, Gerry Adams and a whole load of others who now realise that success will only come about through peace not semtex clearly understand what the craic is. I personally don't see anything in the GFA that panders to Unionism more than it panders to Republicans on certain issues too. In the real grown up world, not the one of toy soliders there is this thing called compromise. It's very important to get this right in order to get where you want to get. Otherwise in simple terms things stay as they are - NI being part of the UK. Not really a option for republicans surely?

parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

thats a great tactic that one. we disagree with you therefore we clearly know nothing about irish politics? I think all of the posters you named have shown a substantial knowledge of the history and politics of ireland what you in fact mean is we disagree with you.

you also quote me then interpret it in your way and try to imply i dont know what i said when i know exactly what i said.

the statement about the irsp believing that unification and socialism wont happen by the military actions of a sole few but my a mass movement clearly states that at this time they dont feel that a military campaign could take them any further (funnily enough i thought you agreed with that or maybe your too busy telling us all how you know better to realise that)at this time. this is why they have been on ceasefire for such a substantial period.

its also very easy for you to condemn those who did join the ira etc as you are doing so with the benefit of hindsight and also the benefit of not living within a community where the brits and state were physically attacking you and colluding with loyalists to attack you. These men and women reacted to the situation at that time.

And I will also state again that republicans were willing to negotiate as far back as the early 1970's but each and everytime they done so the british government acted in bad faith and saw these as opportunities to break republicanism rather than find any meaningfull solutions.

your not being clever of astounding us with any great political insight when you inform us the violence from 69 onwards achieved very little, as republicans we are all very much aware of that fact but that doesnt mean we have to morally condemn those who were part of the movement or stop remembering their sacrafices.
_________________
"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP

"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP

Cymro · Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject:

iainmhor · Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject:

There are four positions being put forward by Republicans in Ireland.

1. Sinn Feins embracing of the GFA and the disbandment of the largest Republican military organisation - PIRA. SF are committed to peaceful/constitutional methods, including of course power sharing with Unionists in Stormont.

2. Republican Sinn Fein with their Eire Nua programme and maintaining of the CIRA and the tactic of armed struggle, although i think its fair to say they realise that a military campaign would at the moment lack sufficient support.

3. IRSM the Republican Socialists, as PRFB correctly states, believe that there is no mood in the working class for offensive military campaigns and believe that only the active and conscious mass of the Irish working class can achieve national unity, national liberation and socialist revolution. They believe in maintaining the INLA for defensive purposes and dont rule out the use of an element of armed struggle in the Irish revolution.

4. 32CSM and their military wing- RIRA. Of the four positions, theirs is probably the most militaristic, indeed after a few years of relative inactivity, the RIRA has just declared its intention to restart war with England.

There is also the Republican socialist Eirigi group of mostly ex Sinn Feiners and many non aligned independent Republicans.

For the beneft of Cymro, my position is probably closest to that of the IRSM/INLA.

Cymro · Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:16 pm Post subject:

I cant see what possible justification there is for IRSM to keep the INLA and refuse to rule out an element of armed struggle in this idea of a revolution. It's ridicilous. Even using the excuse that in the 60's Catholics had little or no civil rights as a means of justifying IRA activities, the Northern Ireland in 2008, while still having obvious issues is nothing like Northern Ireland of the 50's, 60's and 70's. Catholics have key rights, under the voting system they aren't kept out of the political process with a huge number of Republicans and Nationalists sitting in Stormont campaigning for them.

For one thing I believe that in 2008 there is no hope in hell of any armed revolution taking place in Western if not the whole of Europe and actually succeeding to achieve anything of worth. Even a peaceful revolution like those seen in former Soviet Republics in recent years are very very unlikely to appear in the UK again. Socialism has a place I'm sure, but as a whole in Western Europe we seem to be moving more and more to the middle ground as opposed to defining ourselves as 'left' or 'right'.

All the talk of an armed presence or conflict is merely a dying group of marginalists trying to flex what little muscle they have left. None of those you listed who still hint or threaten the use of violence or at least withold the right to return to violent have any support of great worth. No more support than the local gangs have in any housing estate in any innercity area in the UK or beyond.

iainmhor · Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject:

Well the INLA are maintained for the following reasons. Defense of working class Republican areas from any actions by Loyalist murder gangs and indeed, if it ever came about, by British Crown Forces. Defending the community from criminals and anti-social elements. Defending members and infrastructure of the IRSP/M and RSYM from attack.

You could add to that operatons such as revolutionary expropriation.

Of course we are in the ebb of the political tide and we have been there before.

Ill remind you of the old addage that a revolutionary appears unnecessary in a time of reform and most necessary in a time of revolution.

The IRA was a demilitarised and tiny organisation just prior to 1969, for example there was scarcely 3 volunteers and even less weaponry at their disposal in Derry at that time.

The civil rights reforms and gains achieved didnt come about through SDLP type passivity but were wrenched out of the Ulster and British ruling class through revolutionary militancy and yes, armed struggle.

Do you believe that capitalism has conquered its internal contradictions and that growth and progress can only continue ever upwards? Or do you acknowledge that it remains prone to crisis and recession which always results in the working class primarily carrying the can?

The IRSM doesnt seperate the twin struggles for socialism from the task of national liberation, it actively seeks to unite both struggles, primarily by the conscious mass participation of the working class and the poor and down trodden, but it believes that no elite vacates its ruling position without recourse, in the final analysis, to armed reaction. That in the long term, is where the INLA is required.

Cymro · Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:28 am Post subject:

Sorry Iain, but that has to be some of the biggest load of s***e you could have possibly come out with!

Defending Working Class Communities? The only possible thing that can realisticaly defend working class (why are they more worthy than Middle Class communities?) is a truly neutral police force responsible for defending people regardless of politics or religion. Hence why it's hugely important that the matter is devolved and republicans take part in it and not hide behind some ideological fantasy.

Every economic pattern is prone to highs and lows. No way would a socialist state ever be immune to those either.

Civil Rights reforms in Northern Ireland probable had more to do with a wider international movement across all corners of the globe than the violence used by the PIRA and other groups. Also the greater role in media - the damaging images of civil rights groups being shot at by British Forces etc put more pressure than a bomb going off in London or anywhere else - this merely made the UK a victim and allowed it to hide or even legitimse it's own actions in Northern Ireland. Basically no one political party or paramilitary group can claim more responsibility for these rights above more powerful external factors.

It's all well using the romantic visions of defending working classes, talk of a social revolution etc. It's bollocks. Every last bit of it. If people wanted socialism on a grand scale we'd be living in it or they'd vote for it in elections. Revolution isn't going to happen while you or I am alive I can tell you that now.

parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

cymro i find it incredible a person who questions others grasp of the politics of ireland can so grossly misunderstand the british actions in ireland and the thinking of its governments. you should have a look at information which has since become available about the reasons behind government negotiations. they most definitely did see these times as an opportunity to break the ira.

your right though about unionist influence as at various times in british politics they have held considerable influence in certain votes and so were pandered to by the british.

also just because something is very unlikely to happen doesnt mean you should stop the fight to achieve it. your right socialism in scotland and ireland is a long, long way off and may never be achieved but that wont stop me campaigning and fighting for it.

even if i knew there would never be a united ireland it still wouldnt stop me as overall i believe that its right that it should happen. and the other poster is also right when he points out that things can change suddenly in politics.

on your point of the PSNI i would have liked you to have witnessed the scenes at the neil mcmonagle commemoration to see how impartial this shny new police force really is. sinn fein should collectively hang their heads in shame if they think this is an acceptable police force in ireland.
_________________
"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP

"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP

Cymro · Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject:

parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

Cymro · Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: