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RFM · Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject:

So tell me agentmancuso, if you think that the people had no difficulty expressing their opinions at the ballot box, tell us all why Al Gore had more votes than George Bush, but Bush ended up being called "President"?

RFM · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:57 am Post subject:

Or perhaps you favor the sort of balloting that USA UK and Germany gave Hamas in the Opccupied Territory of Palestine?

If they win a free election fair and square you just lable them "terrorists" and ignore them; while they are shot and starved to death?

Your bleating about the abuse of power by left wing causes has the distinct stench of hypocrisy about it.

Red Justice · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 8:25 am Post subject:

Good points RFM I think agentmancuso (perhaps of liberal persuasion) is a guy when he gets bored Nat bashing tries some Commie bashing. I think he likes to do this on forums. He actually, despite the hypocrisy, has a bit of humour about him which readers of his posts will find quite entertaining.

I was used to Commie bashing during the cold war and for instance while the USSR as somewhat socialist was hardly a perfect way of life what it became with it's demise was a tad worse. The liberal minded usually like to quote Poland. Perhaps they should realise if life has been so tremendous there post-Communism why so many workers in recent times through EU movement migrated to find work in other lands. It is ironic that I should hear recently that capitalism is so bad in Scotland many Polish workers will perhaps be returning to their slightly better capitalist system in Poland.

Balloting?

The UK especially and US and West have a lot of double standards about them when it comes to democracy.
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agentmancuso · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject:

agentmancuso · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject:

agentmancuso · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject:

RFM · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject:

Well well, patriotism is said to be the the refuge of the coward, perhaps the pusillanimous as well.

First, George Bush was not elected by the electoral college vote; it was the nine old men of the US Supreme Court that handed him the election even though the electoral college and the House of Representatives should have legally been the ones to make that call. Yes Sir, freedom and democracy in action!
Your brand of democracy is the same brand playing itself out in Zimbabwe today. Lots of criticism for the Chinese but not a word about what goes on in your own back yard.

Speaking of acknowledgments, hows about your willingness to admit that the English killed about twice that number in India? But that was the "white man's burden" of bringing civilization to heathens, right? And opium to the Chinese all to the great profit of the East India Company and its investors. But hush, let us avert our eyes and not look askance on the great and good, lets get down on those Chinese.

RFM · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject:

To agentmancuso,

Before you cry your eyes out about the Tibetans and the terrible treatment they recieve from the Chinese read this:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.co...nks_China/articleshow/3013071.cms

India Times says the monks worship automatic rifles and explosives, and pay homage to Al Qaida. Strange sort of religion wouldn't you say?

agentmancuso · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 7:09 am Post subject:

Holebender · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject:

RFM · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject:

So which is it agentmancuso, nationalism, socialism or communism that sticks in your throat, or maybe you just do not know the difference?

I did not have a preferred candidate in the US elections of 1999, but like I said if you think the Chinese have an edge on fixing elections, count the votes for George Bush and tell us all why he is president. Not a word of outrage from people like you I notice.
I don't know exactly how many Iraqi men women and children have died as a result of Mr. Bush's fixed election, I don't think anyone does, but that to you is just a "constitutional mess", not murder. Who knows one day there may be justice in this world.

Like I said, if you want to see killing, kidnapping and imprisonment of innocent citizens, look to your own backyard, you don't need to look as far a China. At least the Chinese do not run around bleating and moaning about the freedom and liberties of their citizens like the west continually does.

William_Cleland · This is Ma' Life! Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 710

agentmancuso · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject:

agentmancuso · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject:

RFM · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject:

To agentmancuso;

Odd that you should ask. Contrary to the Wikepedia article, the election was decided by the US Supreme Court in Bush v, Gore, 531 US 98 (2000), an opinion famous for its deviousness and lack of candor.

The background of the case was simple actually, despite the efforts of certain commentators to obscure the facts. In the great State of Florida, at the time of that election, the initial returns (official count) were showing George Bush in the lead with less than a margin of 0.5% or about 1700 votes in a population of 16 million. Florida law provided that a recount could be had on a small margin and an automatic recount was started which then diminished Bush’s lead to 327 votes. A hand recount was then started, but into the picture steps Kathrine Harris, Florida Secretary of State, the officer who certifies the vote total for electors. You see in a national election, people do not really cast ballots for the candidate; they are really voting for that candidate’s slate of electors, a group who are pledged to cast their electoral votes at the electoral college for their candidate. It may sound nefarious, but in the 18th century when they used paper ballots and Washington was a distant place several days away on horseback, sending a stack of ballots to Washington to be counted was a sure fire recipe for disaster; hence the electoral college and sending the slate of electors instead. The problem was that it was then and still is now, a winner take all situation. The candidate who took a majority of the state vote got all the electoral votes of that state. Who decided which candidate got a majority of the state vote? In Florida, Katherine Harris, long time right-wing republican, heiress to the citrus fortune, friend of the governor, George Bush’s brother. So before the recounts are done, she decides that George Bush is the winner with less than 300 votes, but there is a lot of evidence than George is actually behind because the recounts are coming up bad news for George putting him behind.

Al Gore goes to the Florida courts and points out correctly that Florida law says he is entitled to his recount and the certification is premature. The lower court and the Florida Supreme Court agree and tell Kathrine Harris to keep counting. George Bush runs to the US Supreme Court, that bastion of all conservatives in the land. And they take up the case literally overnight. Now what the lawyers knew but the general public did not, was that the US Supreme Court, by its own decisions, does not decide questions of state law. This was clearly a state law issue and the Florida Supreme Court had spoken. There was a constitutional method for deciding contested electoral elections and that was in the US House of Representatives. But the Supreme Court was having none of that, they decided that no matter what the Florida courts had to say, Florida did not have a constitutionally approved method of conducting recounts. That meant Kathrine Harris’ decision stood, no matter what the Florida courts thought about it. That in the face of over 200 years of precedent, enshrined in the US Constitution no less, that says each state determines its own rules about voting. Yes, yes, Robert Mugabe could learn from us, he does not need thugs, just a compliant Supreme Court.

agentmancuso · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject:

That doesn't look like rigging an election to me. It looks like a legal dispute over how to interpret the outcome of an election, and a subsequent decision that you don't like. And once the legal decision was made to award Bush the 25 Florida votes, the electoral college chose the president.

And of course, if you don't like the system, you are always free to complain about it publicly, without fear of imprisonment or worse. Not an option available in China...
_________________
Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
Hayek

RFM · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject:

None so blind as will not see!

Holebender · Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:05 am Post subject:

agentmancuso · Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:03 am Post subject:

agentmancuso · Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: