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William_Cleland
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 777
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 Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | Nationalism has no moral imperative. It is purely determinist. Because you are born in a certain tribe, therefore you should defend that tribe's interest. |
You still don't appear to understand what a moral imperative is as you only appear to be able to understand the whole concept of morality within the narrow confines of your own value system but I have no intention of going 20 pages with you tit-for-tat on this. I am switching my focus on here to more positive discussions about the future. Crow away if you like about self-proclaimed victories but bear in mind that I also walked away from RFM and the William Wallace thread when I came to the conclusion that his mind was closed and that he wasn't really interested in intelligent discussion.
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1270
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | Tribalist thugs do not as a general rule admit to being tribalist thugs. Instead they invest great energy into neurotically charged 'good v bad' versions of history, and excuse actions that they themselves would find offensive in other contexts on the need to defend their side from aggression. |
Oh, you mean, for instance, someone who unthinkingly labeled people with a different political ideology from his own as "evil" is really just a tribalist thug without even realising it?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4276
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | agentmancuso wrote: | | Tribalist thugs do not as a general rule admit to being tribalist thugs. Instead they invest great energy into neurotically charged 'good v bad' versions of history, and excuse actions that they themselves would find offensive in other contexts on the need to defend their side from aggression. |
Oh, you mean, for instance, someone who unthinkingly labeled people with a different political ideology from his own as "evil" is really just a tribalist thug without even realising it? |
Do you think Nazism was evil?
Or is this in fact just another bizarre leap of logic in suggesting that someone who believes in any sort of morality is in fact 'tribalist'.
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The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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chicmac
Nationalist
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 155
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | agentmancuso wrote: | | Tribalist thugs do not as a general rule admit to being tribalist thugs. Instead they invest great energy into neurotically charged 'good v bad' versions of history, and excuse actions that they themselves would find offensive in other contexts on the need to defend their side from aggression. |
Oh, you mean, for instance, someone who unthinkingly labeled people with a different political ideology from his own as "evil" is really just a tribalist thug without even realising it? |
Do you think Nazism was evil?
Or is this in fact just another bizarre leap of logic in suggesting that someone who believes in any sort of morality is in fact 'tribalist'. |
Morality has little to do with the extreme right or the extreme left other than both fervently and perversely claim to be the arbiters of it.
Morality and justice are optimized in society when there is balance and respect between it's defining components. As such it is the preserve of the common sense ruled silent majority of the population who just get on with things - if they are allowed to. (Philosophy 101, e.g. 'The Republic')
However whenever the loony left or the rabid right (both IMO manifestations of inadequacy) manage to steal control, the balance goes and along with it justice. |
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1812
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Oh, you mean, for instance, someone who unthinkingly labeled people with a different political ideology from his own as "evil" is really just a tribalist thug without even realising it? |
I'm not sure what you mean. I don't think I called you evil did I? That would be totally out of character
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Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1812
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| William_Cleland wrote: | | You still don't appear to understand what a moral imperative is as you only appear to be able to understand the whole concept of morality within the narrow confines of your own value system but I have no intention of going 20 pages with you tit-for-tat on this. |
Do you really believe that whenever someone disagrees with you it's because they 'just don't understand'?
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Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1270
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | agentmancuso wrote: | | Tribalist thugs do not as a general rule admit to being tribalist thugs. Instead they invest great energy into neurotically charged 'good v bad' versions of history, and excuse actions that they themselves would find offensive in other contexts on the need to defend their side from aggression. |
Oh, you mean, for instance, someone who unthinkingly labeled people with a different political ideology from his own as "evil" is really just a tribalist thug without even realising it? |
Do you think Nazism was evil? |
That was a non sequitur! I think Nazism was evil, but that belief is based on evidence.
You have already posted that Scottish nationalism is evil so... do you think Scottish nationalists are like Nazis?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1270
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | Oh, you mean, for instance, someone who unthinkingly labeled people with a different political ideology from his own as "evil" is really just a tribalist thug without even realising it? |
I'm not sure what you mean. I don't think I called you evil did I? That would be totally out of character
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I mean what I say, and I did not say that you had called me evil. What I said was would someone who unthinkingly labels people with a different political ideology from his own as "evil" fit your "tribalist thug" criterion?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1812
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | I mean what I say, and I did not say that you had called me evil. What I said was would someone who unthinkingly labels people with a different political ideology from his own as "evil" fit your "tribalist thug" criterion? |
I see. No.
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Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
Hayek |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4276
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | That was a non sequitur! I think Nazism was evil, but that belief is based on evidence. |
Evidence of what? It's actions alone?
Is Nazi ideology completely clean of any moral objections, as far as you're concerned?
| Quote: | | You have already posted that Scottish nationalism is evil so... do you think Scottish nationalists are like Nazis? |
In which way? Obviously they share many common attributes being, for example, human beings, a political movement etc.
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The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4276
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | I mean what I say, and I did not say that you had called me evil. What I said was would someone who unthinkingly labels people with a different political ideology from his own as "evil" fit your "tribalist thug" criterion? |
Luckily nobody here is criticising Scottish nationalism 'unthinkingly'.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1270
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | That was a non sequitur! I think Nazism was evil, but that belief is based on evidence. |
Evidence of what? It's actions alone?
Is Nazi ideology completely clean of any moral objections, as far as you're concerned? |
What basis do you have to even pose that question? You are fabricating an extremely flimsy straw man here.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4276
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | What basis do you have to even pose that question? |
I wasn't aware I had to have a 'basis' to ask questions.
| Quote: | | You are fabricating an extremely flimsy straw man here. |
No, I am trying to clarify what seems a rather glaring double standard in an argument you have made.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1270
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:13 am Post subject: |
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OK... you have to have a reason for asking the question, something must have prompted it.
As you think you have a reason for asking, please explain this double standard in one of my arguments.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4276
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | OK... you have to have a reason for asking the question, something must have prompted it.
As you think you have a reason for asking, please explain this double standard in one of my arguments. |
You are suggesting that it is "tribalist" to pass a moral judgement on Scottish nationalism as an ideology, but not on Nazism. If you had answered my questions, your double standard would be readily demonstrable.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1270
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Excuse me? Even by your standards that is an untenable stretch.
I have stated that any negative judgement of nazism is evidence based. You then tried to imply that I had no problem with Nazi ideology but only with Nazi actions. You had absolutely no grounds for such an implication, but you made it.
Now you are trying to equate evidence-based condemnation of nazism with your "moral judgement" on Scottish nationalism so I'm bound to ask you for your evidence for this "moral judgement" of yours.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2564
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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I think it is 42 isn't it? The number of angels that can fit on the head of a pin?
This thread is about 'what if' Scotland became independent.
It seems the answer is that several failed philosphy students will sit around discussing the concpt of "tribe" and "nation". |
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Cruachan
Nationalist
Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 100
Location: The English Midlands
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| Rinty wrote: | I think it is 42 isn't it? The number of angels that can fit on the head of a pin?
This thread is about 'what if' Scotland became independent.
It seems the answer is that several failed philosphy students will sit around discussing the concpt of "tribe" and "nation". |
Here, Here!
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IT'S TIME. |
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Scott2006
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 305
Location: Outside Glasgow
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:13 am Post subject: |
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Alexander
Boris
#
Alexander
Douglas
Alexander
Wendy
Alexander
Salmond
no pattern.
salmonda ina da pay of n4series5
op agent
he is ten times a ninty minute nationalist. . ... .
london paid for pan-americanist subterfuge
this will be deleted...
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Scotland deserves a First rate Parliament for a First rate People
The Scottish Parliamentarians who voted for Treaty of Union in 1706 and signed away Independence had been voted for by less than 2% of the Scottish population |
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1812
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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And you wonder why Nationalism makes me nervous...
_________________
Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
Hayek |
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