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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4210
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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 Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| chicmac wrote: | | It's a pretty weird self-centred cove who would have no national pride. |
I once had someone tell me the same thing when I told him that I had no pride whatsoever in being white.
Perhaps the sort of cove who realises that pride is, for one, a deadly sin, and for another should at least be restricted to one's actual accomplishments rather than taking 'pride' in a completely abstract notion. Why should I be proud of Scotland - or, conversely, why should I be ashamed of where it falls short? I have very little influence in either and, to be frank, Scotland and Scottish people are no better than anyone else.
| Quote: | | I mean isn't that effectively saying "I don't care what my country is like!"? |
I only care in the sense that I care equally for every human being on this planet. I do not care more about persons I apparently share some randomly plucked characteristic (whether it be 'Scottishness' or, in my example above, race) over others.
Equally, I do not take an interest in places which I have no association with, but are behind a certain line drawn on a map and largely set by warmongers and ethnic cleansers.
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'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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William_Cleland
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 743
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: |
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I seem to remember comments from you about the picture of the two Royal Marines stationed on Rockall that would be consistent with national pride.
http://ourscotland.myfreeforum.org/ftopic4625-0-asc-0.php
Full of good old British spunk, if you ask me.
Of course, you and your ilk wouldn't quite get that. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4210
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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What's wrong with that? I accept the existence of generalised national characteristics in some circumstances. I also enjoy a bit of a laugh.
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The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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Tamed by a Scotsman
On A Journey (500 Miles)
Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 22
Location: England :(
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | chicmac wrote: | | It's a pretty weird self-centred cove who would have no national pride. |
Perhaps the sort of cove who realises that pride is, for one, a deadly sin, and for another should at least be restricted to one's actual accomplishments rather than taking 'pride' in a completely abstract notion. Why should I be proud of Scotland - or, conversely, why should I be ashamed of where it falls short? I have very little influence in either and, to be frank, Scotland and Scottish people are no better than anyone else.
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National pride is a good thing for a number of different reasons.
First reason is because of our biological make-up, our instincts. We have evolved as pack animals. We work better in small communities that each have a collective identity. And taking pride in your pack, your community and your identity as part of that community leads to greater social cohesion and helps the pack as a whole. Now you may argue that this leads to greater conflict with other communities, whether they be other packs, other football teams or other countries. But that's the nature of life. We only evolved in the first place because we competed against each other. Of course we have moved on from this but we still compete economically and national pride helps a country in this regard. For example, generally speaking the Germans will most often opt for buying German goods such as their own cars whereas the English will often just go for the cheapest price regardless.
Secondly, until you move to a different country, you don't fully appreciate just how much your ethics and view of life are shaped by the culture you grew up in. So having pride in your own country means that you respect yourself as a person, and that is definitely a healthy thing to do!
The world is too big and too full of people to be concerned about the welfare of everyone in it. But you can look after those that you live with and be proud to know them, to help them where necessary and be proud to contribute.
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"They may take our lives, but they'll never take our tablet!" |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4210
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Tamed by a Scotsman"]National pride is a good thing for a number of different reasons. [/quote
| Quote: | | First reason is because of our biological make-up, our instincts. We have evolved as pack animals. We work better in small communities that each have a collective identity. |
A nation is not a community. I will never meet more than a tiny fraction of a percentage of these people. I live in a community: a village - where I recognise the people and interact with them.
| Quote: | | And taking pride in your pack, your community and your identity as part of that community leads to greater social cohesion and helps the pack as a whole. |
I'm afraid I don't buy into collectivism. What leads to the Greater Glory of the Nation is not always good for me - in fact, in most cases it's very bad for my liberty.
Moreover, I don't want goods, I want freedoms.
| Quote: | | For example, generally speaking the Germans will most often opt for buying German goods such as their own cars whereas the English will often just go for the cheapest price regardless. |
That's a sickening mentality - that you'd consider secondary the needs of others because of some line drawn on a map.
| Quote: | | Secondly, until you move to a different country, you don't fully appreciate just how much your ethics and view of life are shaped by the culture you grew up in. So having pride in your own country means that you respect yourself as a person, and that is definitely a healthy thing to do! |
No it doesn't, it means you surrender yourself to foolish sentimentality and collectivism. Which means, in the long run, you're going to end up simply as pawns to the Nation.
Anyway, if you believe all this, then when are you going to start being proud of being British?
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1812
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Tamed by a Scotsman wrote: |
National pride is a good thing for a number of different reasons.
First reason is because of our biological make-up, our instincts. |
It's refreshing to see a Scottish Nationalist openly admitting that pride in biological make-up is the basis for nationalism.
| Quote: | | We have evolved as pack animals. |
Some of us have evolved past that stage.
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Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1246
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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It's a pity your ability to think rationally is so stunted though.
Some nationalists are racists. It does not follow that all nationalists are racists, in the same way that it is impossible to extrapolate from a few individual to proclaim that all LibDems are twits.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1812
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Some nationalists are racists. |
Even some Scottish nationalists? 
George! There's a heretic on board.
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Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
Hayek |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1246
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Of course some Scottish nationalists are racists, but far fewer than the numbers of LibDems who are twits.
The largest contingent of racists, however, can assuredly be found among the ranks of the British nationalists.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Alasdair
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 431
Location: Clydesdale
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | The largest contingent of racists, however, can assuredly be found among the ranks of the British nationalists. |
Although you have to wonder if British Nationalists are nationalists at all? They never seem particularly 'British' to me anyway ... although to be honest I still haven't quite figured out what it means to be 'British', so who knows?!
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"We look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilisation." - Voltaire |
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Lord Pitsligo
Nationalist
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 112
Location: Englandshire (but not for long!)
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: |
Some of us have evolved past that stage. |
I'm sure some people would like to think that, but our biological origins are a lot stronger than they realise.
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"Grace Me Guide" |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 928
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Holebender wrote "Some nationalists are racists".
Agentmancuso asks "Even some Scottish nationalists?"
My uncle George was a racist Scottish nationalist. Well, when I say my uncle, I mean he was married to my mother's older sister. As well as Scottish Nationalist songs, he was also known, when he had a drink in him (which means this was not a rare occurrence) to sing a couple of rather unpleasant songs about the Jews. During the Second World War, he saw no reason why we should be fighting our brothers the Germans. (He wasn't actually fighting them personally, being in a reserved occupation). I have little doubt he would have co-operated with the German forces if they had ever reached Scotland. As long as they installed a Scottish Nazi government.
Holebender wrote "Of course some Scottish nationalists are racists".
So far as I am aware, no anti-racist supporter of independence for Scotland has ever denied this.
"The largest contingent of racists, however, can assuredly be found among the ranks of the British nationalists."
I agree. If we consider some contemporaries of Uncle George, very senior members of the British "Royal Family" are on record as making some extremely racist remarks. No, not just the Duke of Windsor, the dear old Queen Mum, Prince Phillip, and there seems little doubt such attitudes are prevalent amongst the younger generation of royals too. Winston Churchill is on record as making disgusting remarks about Jews, Africans, Asians, and practically everybody else he harboured a prejudice against. Bringing things up to date, for decades now, it has been groups like the National Front and the British National Party that have been active in anti-immigrant campaigns, not the SNP.
I think the REASON why there is more racism amongst British nationalists than amongst Scottish nationalists is because of the Empire. Many British nationalists still hanker after the days of Empire, when Brittania ruled the waves, and when "lesser breeds without the law" knew their place. Generally speaking, Scottish nationalists do not suffer from those Empire-Hangover attitudes. So, although there are some racist Scottish nationalists (like my uncle George), there is, generally speaking, less racism amongst Scottish nationalists than there is amongst British nationalists. |
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William_Cleland
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 743
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| Lord Pitsligo wrote: | | agentmancuso wrote: |
Some of us have evolved past that stage. |
I'm sure some people would like to think that, but our biological origins are a lot stronger than they realise. |
Some people on here appear to have a guid conceit o themselves right enough as they appear to think that they are something more than an unusually intelligent ape complete with a brain that still functions accordingly.
http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html
Although they appear to me to routinely stereotype and demonise a large diverse group by defining them all as "nationalists" so they can all be treated as a single nameless faceless enemy, the idea that their brain functions according to Dunbar's number would no doubt seem preposterous to them. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4210
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Alasdair wrote: | | Although you have to wonder if British Nationalists are nationalists at all? They never seem particularly 'British' to me anyway ... although to be honest I still haven't quite figured out what it means to be 'British', so who knows?! |
Have you figured out what it means to be Scottish, precisely?
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4210
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | So, although there are some racist Scottish nationalists (like my uncle George), there is, generally speaking, less racism amongst Scottish nationalists than there is amongst British nationalists. |
Lucky then that British nationalists are rather sidelined creatures, notwithstanding their new seat on the London Assembly.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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Alasdair
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 431
Location: Clydesdale
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Alasdair wrote: | | Although you have to wonder if British Nationalists are nationalists at all? They never seem particularly 'British' to me anyway ... although to be honest I still haven't quite figured out what it means to be 'British', so who knows?! |
Have you figured out what it means to be Scottish, precisely? |
It's certainly very difficult to define in precise terms without ridiculous recourse to racial origins and political boundaries.
I've been trying to come up with an answer to the question of, 'what does it mean to me to be Scottish?' for some time and have found it very difficult to articulate. I heard a poem recently (possibly by Mark Thomson ... possibly not) which summed up pretty well what it means to be Scottish, alas I don't have the text and haven't been able to find a reference :frustrationwritlarge:
I think the important aspect of the question I pose above, is the 'me' part. I don't think you can lay down guidelines and say this is what makes someone Scottish and if you're not that you're not Scottish ...
... to me it's personal, it's emotional, it's an attachment and a relationship that I feel towards the community in which I live.
It's vague and ethereal to the touch, it's imagery and societal touchstones it's IRN BRU and Whisky, it's hills and glens and lochs, it's nessy! it's a warm welcome and an open home. It's pride and ambition, tolerance and acceptance.
It's haggis, and tourists that think you can hunt them!
It's my children and my parents and their parents.
It's my neighbours, be they pleasant or otherwise.
It's fried fish, fresh prawns, camping in the rain, being eaten by midges.
It's all these things, it's everything and nothing, it's who I am.
I suppose the same could be said for feeling British and perhaps i can't define being British because when I look at a map of Britain I see Scotland, England, Wales, and N.Ireland. I see a Government at Westminster pleasing nobody and breeding dissillusionment, anger and division between peoples. I see parties like the BNP gaining sway because Britain doesn't have a strong and valid identity, it's the dirt in the cracks between the nations that make it up.
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"We look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilisation." - Voltaire |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1246
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Dave Coull wrote: | | So, although there are some racist Scottish nationalists (like my uncle George), there is, generally speaking, less racism amongst Scottish nationalists than there is amongst British nationalists. |
Lucky then that British nationalists are rather sidelined creatures, notwithstanding their new seat on the London Assembly. |
You clearly have no idea who the British nationalists are. How about a politician who makes speeches using phrases like British jobs for British workers? The truth is every mainstream politician in the UK except the ones who advocate independence for various subdivisions of the UK is a British nationalist. There's not one of them who doesn't put the UK first, or who advocates dissolving the UK. These people are British nationalists, just as mainstream French politicians are French nationalist, and so on.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1812
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Of course some Scottish nationalists are racists |
Please tell George - he think's it's a Unionist Plot.
| Quote: | | but far fewer than the numbers of LibDems who are twits. |
There are some of course. But the vast majority seem reassuringly sensible at close hand.
| Quote: | | The largest contingent of racists, however, can assuredly be found among the ranks of the British nationalists. |
Very true.
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1812
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | How about a politician who makes speeches using phrases like British jobs for British workers? |
Politicians frequently make use of base nationalist sentiments for populist reasons; it's an appeal to the lowest common denominator, and as such, vile.
| Quote: | | The truth is every mainstream politician in the UK except the ones who advocate independence for various subdivisions of the UK is a British nationalist. There's not one of them who doesn't put the UK first, or who advocates dissolving the UK. These people are British nationalists, just as mainstream French politicians are French nationalist, and so on. |
That's an absurd suggestion. National politicians who do what they think best for whatever administrative unit they happen to run are not necessarily 'nationalists'. If the councilors for South Lanarkshire put South Lanarkshire first does that make them Lanarkshire nationalists? Of course not; they are just doing their job properly.
Nationalism depends on a belief in an essential political unit.
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1812
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| William_Cleland wrote: | | Although they appear to me to routinely stereotype and demonise a large diverse group by defining them all as "nationalists" |
If it seems that way to you, it's perhaps because you fail to read my posts very closely. I have never demonised nationalists; many are no doubt genuine and well-meaning in their political convictions. But, yes, I do demonise 'nationalism', because I find the terrible events of the last century hard to ignore.
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