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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1355
Location: Here or There
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 Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: |
Nationalism depends on a belief in an essential political unit. |
That is only your definition and does not make it so. If you want to play your silly word games, give us an acceptable (to you) term for someone who advocates the independence of Scotland within its present borders but who has no belief in an essential political unit. For rational people, "nationalist" is an acceptable though possibly imprecise term.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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William_Cleland
I really have nothing else to do!!!
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 852
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | If it seems that way to you, it's perhaps because you fail to read my posts very closely. I have never demonised nationalists; many are no doubt genuine and well-meaning in their political convictions. But, yes, I do demonise 'nationalism', because I find the terrible events of the last century hard to ignore. |
The demonisation of the group you term "nationalists" is based on the way you use crude guilt by association tactics to falsely imply that these terrible events are an inevitable outcome of their activities. For every Yugoslavian type scenario there has been a "velvet divorce" Czechoslovakian one. Without the European Union there would be no serious prospect of an independent Scotland. The fuss you make over the supposed dangers of what would simply be a case of swapping one form of political and economic union for another is absurd. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4408
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | agentmancuso wrote: |
Nationalism depends on a belief in an essential political unit. |
That is only your definition and does not make it so. If you want to play your silly word games, give us an acceptable (to you) term for someone who advocates the independence of Scotland within its present borders but who has no belief in an essential political unit. For rational people, "nationalist" is an acceptable though possibly imprecise term. |
I, for one, don't believe in this semi-mythical non-nationalist advocate of Scottish independence.
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The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1355
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Do you know what? I don't give a stuff for what you believe. This is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of rational discourse. If you cannot reach conclusions through reason and critical thinking stop wasting my time.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| William_Cleland wrote: | | The demonisation of the group you term "nationalists" is based on the way you use crude guilt by association tactics to falsely imply that these terrible events are an inevitable outcome of their activities. |
I've never said that these terrible events are an inevitable outcome. I've said that terrible events are such a frequent outcome that advocates of nationalism must demonstrate their willingness to take into account the likelihood that a greater or lesser degree of ugly xenophobia will manifest itself as a direct result of of nationalist fervour.
The SNP, as a political party, do this well, as I've regularly stated. But many individual Scottish nationalists either indulge personally in low-level xenophobia, or tolerate it silently in others, or deny its existence all together.
On this forum George is an example of the last category, there are a good few examples of the first category, and the vast bulk fall into the second category. Holebender consistently confronts such behaviour, but he is the only nationalist to do so.
| Quote: | | For every Yugoslavian type scenario there has been a "velvet divorce" Czechoslovakian one. |
No there hasn't. Yugoslavia outnumbers Czechoslovakia by 10 to 1.
| Quote: | | Without the European Union there would be no serious prospect of an independent Scotland. |
I agree. The existence of the EU makes the whole thing much less likely to go off the rails.
| Quote: | | The fuss you make over the supposed dangers of what would simply be a case of swapping one form of political and economic union for another is absurd. |
I don't make a fuss about the dangers of swapping one form political and economic union for another. I make a fuss about the refusal of many Scottish nationalists to recognise the dangers inherent to all nationalism, including their own.
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Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | That is only your definition and does not make it so. If you want to play your silly word games |
It is a sillier word game to pretend that 'nationalists' don't believe in a 'nation'
| Quote: | | give us an acceptable (to you) term for someone who advocates the independence of Scotland within its present borders but who has no belief in an essential political unit. |
I've never met one. Where are these people?
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Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
Hayek |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1355
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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I know you and I have never met, but you have encountered such people. There are several who post here.
More silly word games.
Whether or not you've met such a person you could certainly answer the question and provide an acceptable adjective.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4408
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Do you know what? I don't give a stuff for what you believe. This is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of rational discourse. If you cannot reach conclusions through reason and critical thinking stop wasting my time. |
Pram ---> Toys.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1355
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Head ^ arse.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4408
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Head ^ arse. |
I must ask one of your fellow former IF chums what age you actually are.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | I know you and I have never met, but you have encountered such people. There are several who post here. |
Like who?
| Quote: | | Whether or not you've met such a person you could certainly answer the question and provide an acceptable adjective. |
If, as you claim, these mythical creatures exists, then presumably they are best placed to supply their own label?
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Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
Hayek |
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Red Justice
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 428
Location: Dun Deagh
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | agentmancuso wrote: |
Nationalism depends on a belief in an essential political unit. |
That is only your definition and does not make it so. If you want to play your silly word games, give us an acceptable (to you) term for someone who advocates the independence of Scotland within its present borders but who has no belief in an essential political unit. For rational people, "nationalist" is an acceptable though possibly imprecise term. |
I, for one, don't believe in this semi-mythical non-nationalist advocate of Scottish independence. |
I am an advocate for Scottish independence by way of an Independent Socialist Scotland which does not make me a nationalist. I am a socialist who believes in independence with a social system that ends a class ridden society in Scotland.
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"We need independence but we also need socialism"
http://scottishsocfree.blogspot.com
http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=6732691161 |
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agentmancuso
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Red Justice wrote: | | I am an advocate for Scottish independence by way of an Independent Socialist Scotland which does not make me a nationalist. I am a socialist who believes in independence with a social system that ends a class ridden society in Scotland. |
Well yes, but you also believe in 'guns' and 'revolutions', and so can be quietly discounted from any serious discussion. I hope Holebender has a better ace than you up his sleeve, or his argument is sunk without trace.
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Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
Hayek |
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Red Justice
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 428
Location: Dun Deagh
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | Red Justice wrote: | | I am an advocate for Scottish independence by way of an Independent Socialist Scotland which does not make me a nationalist. I am a socialist who believes in independence with a social system that ends a class ridden society in Scotland. |
Well yes, but you also believe in 'guns' and 'revolutions', and so can be quietly discounted from any serious discussion. I hope Holebender has a better ace than you up his sleeve, or his argument is sunk without trace. |
Only believe in armned revolt if the political conditions make it necessary and only as a last resort. The revolution in Cuba was fought with guns to overthrow the Batista dictatorship. Some revolutions can be won through the political process. Revolution is about change and socialist revolution liberates the working and lower classes from capitalism. Revolutions take many forms. I advocate revolutionary change in Scotland which sets me apart from the reformists advocating constitutional nationalism.
_________________
"We need independence but we also need socialism"
http://scottishsocfree.blogspot.com
http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=6732691161 |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1355
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | I know you and I have never met, but you have encountered such people. There are several who post here. |
Like who?
| Quote: | | Whether or not you've met such a person you could certainly answer the question and provide an acceptable adjective. |
If, as you claim, these mythical creatures exists, then presumably they are best placed to supply their own label? |
As previously indicated, they exist. I am such a person.
I am completely comfortable with the label "nationalist", so where does that leave you?
Aventinian, I suspect I am approximately twice your age, and I gave up tolerating fools a long time ago. Life's too short.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Jimbo
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 783
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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agentmancuso wrote:
| Quote: | | Nationalism depends on a belief in an essential political unit. |
Hi Agent,
you used to be a Nat', what made you go over to the dark-side? |
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Lord Pitsligo
Nationalist
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 130
Location: Englandshire (but not for long!)
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: |
Equally, I do not take an interest in places which I have no association with, but are behind a certain line drawn on a map and largely set by warmongers and ethnic cleansers. |
One thing I noticed when I studied geology was how often national borders were defined by geological boundaries. The Scottish/English border is largely defined by a geological boundary left over from the days when they were part of different continents.
And that's before we take into account coastal borders - which accounts for the rest of Scotland.
Just look at how many borders are set by mountain ranges. And as mountain ranges often indicate a change in geology, and therefore a change in landscape, soil quality and many other environmental factors, maybe it also indicates a change in culture. I would argue that many countries are in fact defined by natural boundaries, which in many cases produce a change in the environment, and so a change in the culture, beyond that boundary.
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William_Cleland
I really have nothing else to do!!!
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 852
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | I make a fuss about the refusal of many Scottish nationalists to recognise the dangers inherent to all nationalism, including their own. |
Think you have no real clue of what things are like in the context of ethnic conflicts and are more than a little bit paranoid if you think that is the scenario in Scotland. There were very serious and long standing internal divisions in Yugoslavia that made the advent of liberal democracy a recipe for warfare when enforced unity through dictatorship was removed, in a way that was not the case with Czechoslovakia. The differing outcomes demonstrates that the supposed dangers of nationalism are not inherent and points to other factors being required as well. For example, religious differences tend to be a major source of strife and can be readily used to explain why Montenegro and Serbia could split apart peacefully despite there being a large pro-Serb population in Montenegro while things went terribly wrong in a Bosnian context. The western media was very slanted against the Serbs (probably due to Cold war biases and the notion that they were the Balkan version of the Russians) and never fully reported on the sort of stuff that drove some of them completely mental in the Croatian and Bosnian contexts. Meet Mahir Burekovic, the sort of Bosnian Muslim who was not fighting to defend a secular multicultural republic even if some of the others were:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVRvCJ0L2Gg
Beyond all that I think a lot of people who use messageboards tend to let the moderators do their job where posters like Red Justice are concerned and in general prefer not to feed obvious trolls in the hope that by denying them the attention they crave they will take the hint and go away. To extrapolate from that to tacit support for their activities and purported veiwpoints again strongly suggests to me that you are paranoid.
Last edited by William_Cleland on Sat May 31, 2008 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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William_Cleland
I really have nothing else to do!!!
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 852
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | Whether or not you've met such a person you could certainly answer the question and provide an acceptable adjective. |
If, as you claim, these mythical creatures exists, then presumably they are best placed to supply their own label? |
Mythical creature? Why are the opinion poll numbers for "independence in the EU?" and "complete independence outside the UK and the EU" so different if it all boils down to essential political units? |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4408
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Red Justice wrote: | | I am an advocate for Scottish independence by way of an Independent Socialist Scotland which does not make me a nationalist. I am a socialist who believes in independence with a social system that ends a class ridden society in Scotland. |
I dispute your justification.
Class-ridden societies etc are irrelevant to the question of Scottish independence. Why do you support the latter?
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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