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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1368
Location: Here or There
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 Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | The UK is broken beyond repair |
Any such claim can only be based on faith alone. |
Not at all. It is based on my analysis of the situation we find ourselves in. If you believe otherwise I will pay you the courtesy of thinking you have grounds for your belief rather than blind faith. The least you can do is reciprocate.
| agentmancuso wrote: | | Quote: | | Scotland has a long history as an independent state |
Surely you mean a long dead history? |
Only in the sense that all history is in the past and therefore dead. Scotland has a history of some 800 or so years as a recognisable independent state and 300 years as a subdivision of another state. I'd say history is on the side of independence; it has been lost before, and regained.
| agentmancuso wrote: | | Quote: | | Why not encourage and work for Scotland's independence as a means of achieving better, more representative, government for me and my neighbours? Don't you get that? |
It's not a question of getting it, but of believing that an independent Scotland would actually do any of those things. What makes you so sure it would? |
What makes you so sure it wouldn't? I can only go on my observations and analysis which tell me independence couldn't be worse that the present situation. Leaving the nest and becoming independent is the making of most adults, and I see no reason why it shouldn't also be the case for a collection of adults living in Scotland.
| agentmancuso wrote: | | Quote: | | I know many people whose support for independence is base entirely on the argument of better governance. |
Well what makes them so sure then? |
You'll have to ask them. In my opinion they have followed a similar path to mine and have arrived at a similar conclusion.
Will you now acknowledge that people can support independence, be comfortable with the epithet "nationalist", and not have these blood and soil "essential" notions you keep banging on about?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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William_Cleland
I really have nothing else to do!!!
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 855
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | I have never demonised SNP supporters. I regularly criticise the minority who make xenophobic remarks, and the larger group who tolerate them out of a) electoral necessity or b) silent agreement. The fact that nationalist posters regularly and freely provide evidence for my stated belief that all nationalism contains a dangerous element is proof not of my prejudices, but of the nature of nationalism. |
One moment he isn't demonising people, the next moment all nationalism contains a dangerous element. 
| agentmancuso wrote: | | But this has nothing to do with the 'essential' question, though I concede that might be my fault for failing to make myself clear. By 'essential' I mean literally 'possessing of an essence' i.e. something other than an accident of history and a temporary state of affairs. |
Given it has already become abundantly clear that you do not fully understand the nature of federalism I don't think you are in a strong position to be setting yourself up as some sort of political guru on here. The reason people tend to be so pragmatic about Scottish nationalism and are willing to peacefully take no for an answer is that it lacks a clear moral imperative. It is only when the question of national identity becomes tied into something like religious faith, which can provide that missing moral imperative i.e. it becomes a jihad or a crusade etc, that people become dogmatic about the whole question of nationality. Hence the difference between what happens on the island of Ireland and what happens in Scotland and also why the emergence of Bosnia and Slovakia as internationally recognised states were completely different scenarios, which did not inherently involve the same dangers. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4413
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| William_Cleland wrote: | | One moment he isn't demonising people, the next moment all nationalism contains a dangerous element. |
I wonder that it's not simply a matter of terminology. It would be rather odd to say I "demonise" murderers simply because I think murder is wrong, for example. Ultimately however, I imagine Agent feels the same way about Nationalism - and quite correctly so in my mind.
Speaking for myself, if that's demonising you, then I'm afraid I must just consider you demons. 
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1368
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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So now you equate nationalism with murderers.
Could you try to be more offensive?
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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doodells
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 76
Location: Granada, Spain.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:00 am Post subject: |
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What if Scotland did become independent?
Everyone who feels a smidgen of hope must act now.... everyone who wants it, must act now. The people who believe that Scotland should be independent need to focus much more strongly on getting independence. They need to drive for it, tell everyone, persuade everyone, spend all of their free time campaigning. If not... then you might need to live with the prospect of losing support.. losing a referendum. I guarantee that the unionists have began their campaign to keep Scotland and all it is worth, within its grasp.
Do not underestimate the power of the UK and the people who have interests in keeping Scotland a part of the UK.
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"Scotland alone remains the ragged trousered philanthropist of petroleum economies." |
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William_Cleland
I really have nothing else to do!!!
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 855
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | William_Cleland wrote: | | One moment he isn't demonising people, the next moment all nationalism contains a dangerous element. |
I wonder that it's not simply a matter of terminology. It would be rather odd to say I "demonise" murderers simply because I think murder is wrong, for example. Ultimately however, I imagine Agent feels the same way about Nationalism - and quite correctly so in my mind.
Speaking for myself, if that's demonising you, then I'm afraid I must just consider you demons. |
Given I have stated repeatedly that I am ambivalent about the whole question of independence I wonder why I qualify as "you"? I think Holebender is right that an analogy with murder is innately offensive in this context. Nationalism can be dangerous in certain circumstances but so can socialism, liberalism or conservatism when taken to extremes in an intolerant manner. Suggesting that it always has inherent dangers in all circumstances and by extension that all politically active nationalists are therefore always inherently dangerous despite the many examples of where everything went smoothly like the Czech-Slovak "velvet divorce" and Norway separating from Sweden or Canada, Australia and New Zealand leaving the British Empire and becoming independent states is what represents a process of demonisation and, in my opinion, is suggestive of very deep seated prejudice to the point of bigotry. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4413
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | The UK is broken beyond repair |
Silence the prittle-prattle of the civil servants; policeman, neglect your beats; forget the fire service; justices, quash your trade; soldiers, silence your guns; civilians, tear up your currency and have a bonfire of your tax discs; newspapermen, robe your publications in black and summon your best obituary writers - the state is broken!
Funny, it seems to me that - in spite of a socialist government for the last decade - the state is doing fine; better than ever if anything. In fact, I just checked my door - and indeed the postman has come rather earlier than usual!
| Quote: | | rather like the weather maps used by the BBC. |
Zzz...
Next you'll be on about how the football commentators on the telly talk about 1966 too much...
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4413
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| William_Cleland wrote: | | Given I have stated repeatedly that I am ambivalent about the whole question of independence I wonder why I qualify as "you"? |
My apologies.
| Quote: | | I think Holebender is right that an analogy with murder is innately offensive in this context. |
If he chooses to take offence, fair enough. Usually I find that people who object to perfectly legitimate comparisons are usually trying to fudge issues rather than address them. Realistically, I don't care who I offend - so I don't see why it's even worth bringing up.
If you don't like murder, then take any comparable act: however I thing my analogy made my point rather well.
| William_Cleland wrote: | | Nationalism can be dangerous in certain circumstances but so can socialism, liberalism or conservatism when taken to extremes in an intolerant manner. |
Extreme, intolerant liberalism?
Extreme conservatism?
| Quote: | | Suggesting that it always has inherent dangers in all circumstances and by extension that all politically active nationalists are therefore always inherently dangerous despite the many examples of where everything went smoothly like the Czech-Slovak "velvet divorce" and Norway separating from Sweden or Canada, Australia and New Zealand leaving the British Empire and becoming independent states is what represents a process of demonisation and, in my opinion, is suggestive of very deep seated prejudice to the point of bigotry. |
Canada, Australia and New Zealand were never part of the United Kingdom. We have (quite rightly, I believe) condemned colonial relationships between states.
Moreover, the dissolution of the major European states, which the two you mention must be seen in the context of, was rather more an example of the fall of the major Royal houses and social empires which had created Europe and rather more linked to the two world wars and the fall of Communism than anything else.
As for my views on the subject: I don't believe that Nationalism leads to evil things, I believe it is evil in itself.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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William_Cleland
I really have nothing else to do!!!
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 855
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Extreme, intolerant liberalism? |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ataturk
| Aventinian wrote: | | Extreme conservatism? |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_D%27Aubuisson
| Aventinian wrote: | | As for my views on the subject: I don't believe that Nationalism leads to evil things, I believe it is evil in itself. |
You would sooner the Enlightenment had never happened and we went back to feudalism? The national state is how the world is currently organised and adding another one with a capital in Edinburgh isn't going to change much in the big scheme of things so your comments are basically school playground level jibes.
Last edited by William_Cleland on Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4413
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | In order to best serve the needs of the people where I live we need a government which will actually know we exist and will do what it needs to to get our votes. |
Is this based on anything more than simple mathematics, that 129 MSPs can better represent five million people than 646 MPs can represent fifty-five million people? Include the membership of the Lords, and the number of people per parliamentarian on each level is virtually the same.
_________________
The resident pantomime villain.
'Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean—power over people, power to the State.' |
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Alasdair
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 433
Location: Clydesdale
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Funny, it seems to me that - in spite of a socialist government for the last decade - the state is doing fine; better than ever if anything. In fact, I just checked my door - and indeed the postman has come rather earlier than usual! |
socialist government? are you sure?
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"We look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilisation." - Voltaire |
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Lord Pitsligo
Nationalist
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 130
Location: Englandshire (but not for long!)
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: |
| Quote: | | rather like the weather maps used by the BBC. |
Zzz...
Next you'll be on about how the football commentators on the telly talk about 1966 too much... |
You sound like Tony Blair being asked where the weapons of mass destruction are in Iraq. They don't mention 1967 quite so much though, do they 
The map does confuse me though. Would they show a football match from one end just because more people supported one team?
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"Grace Me Guide" |
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agentmancuso
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2008
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Not at all. It is based on my analysis of the situation we find ourselves in. If you believe otherwise I will pay you the courtesy of thinking you have grounds for your belief rather than blind faith. The least you can do is reciprocate. |
But it's not a reciprocal situation. I can't know for sure that the UK will be fixed. But I know, for sure, that we can try. Your assertion that it can't be fixed is no more than that: an assertion based on blind faith.
| Holebender wrote: | | Quote: | | It's not a question of getting it, but of believing that an independent Scotland would actually do any of those things. What makes you so sure it would? |
What makes you so sure it wouldn't? |
I'm not sure it wouldn't. I am open to be convinced. But if the best argument you have is that 'the UK can't be fixed' then it leaves me cold, as the underlying current is one of emotionalist identity politics, rather than serious analysis.
| Quote: | | Leaving the nest and becoming independent is the making of most adults, and I see no reason why it shouldn't also be the case for a collection of adults living in Scotland. |
I think that reinforces my already pretty strong conviction that nationalism is at heart identity driven, despite the empty talk of better governance.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Well what makes them so sure then? |
You'll have to ask them. |
I am asking them: what makes you all so sure?
| Quote: | | Will you now acknowledge that people can support independence, be comfortable with the epithet "nationalist", and not have these blood and soil "essential" notions you keep banging on about? |
I'm afraid your arguments above merely reinforce my case.
_________________
Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
Hayek |
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agentmancuso
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2008
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Ataturk was a Nationalist, as the quote on the page to which you link amply illustrates:
| Quote: | | "…by complete independence, we mean of course complete economic, financial, juridical, military, cultural independence and freedom in all matters. Being deprived of independence in any of these is equivalent to the nation and country being deprived of all its independence." |
That's not much of an argument either. What was he trying to conserve?
_________________
Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
Hayek |
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William_Cleland
I really have nothing else to do!!!
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 855
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:32 am Post subject: |
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I note you have not come up with one of your trademark line by line rebuttal replies so far to the lack of a moral imperative stuff I posted earlier in the thread.
Given it has already become abundantly clear that you do not fully understand the nature of federalism I don't think you are in a strong position to be setting yourself up as some sort of political guru on here. The reason people tend to be so pragmatic about Scottish nationalism and are willing to peacefully take no for an answer is that it lacks a clear moral imperative. It is only when the question of national identity becomes tied into something like religious faith, which can provide that missing moral imperative i.e. it becomes a jihad or a crusade etc, that people become dogmatic about the whole question of nationality. Hence the difference between what happens on the island of Ireland and what happens in Scotland and also why the emergence of Bosnia and Slovakia as internationally recognised states were completely different scenarios, which did not inherently involve the same dangers.
Deal with that first in a logical and rational manner and I may find the time to discuss Ataturk and D'Aubuisson with you. |
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agentmancuso
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2008
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| William_Cleland wrote: | | I note you have not come up with one of your trademark line by line rebuttal replies so far to the lack of a moral imperative stuff I posted earlier in the thread. |
Well, no. I don't just disagree with things because of who said them; a lesson you could learn a lot from. I agree, in part, with the points you make, though I'd amend them as follows:
| Quote: | | The reason people tend to be so pragmatic about Scottish nationalism and are willing to peacefully take no for an answer is that it lacks a clear moral imperative. |
I agree that nationalism lacks any moral imperative. In fact, nationalism lacks a moral dimension of any sort, as it is in principle amoral; it considers life a simple 'us' against 'them' struggle.
| Quote: | | It is only when the question of national identity becomes tied into something like religious faith, which can provide that missing moral imperative i.e. it becomes a jihad or a crusade etc, that people become dogmatic about the whole question of nationality. |
I agree that the more dogmatically that variable layers of identity are claimed to overlap, the easier for the assertion of identity to become strident. But it's an oversimplification to say that nationalism only becomes dangerous when it becomes entangled with religion: the most strident and bloodthirsty nationalism of the 20th century (German) had no such dimension at all, and the Turkish nationalism you referred to earlier was 'anti-religious'.
| Quote: | | why the emergence of Bosnia and Slovakia as internationally recognised states were completely different scenarios, which did not inherently involve the same dangers. |
The emergence of new states in recently war-torn areas always involves dangers. Sometimes, the situation is resolved happily, sometimes not. We can always hope for, and work for, the best resolution, but we cannot pretend there is no danger involved: that way madness lies.
_________________
Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
Hayek |
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William_Cleland
I really have nothing else to do!!!
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 855
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | I agree that nationalism lacks any moral imperative. In fact, nationalism lacks a moral dimension of any sort, as it is in principle amoral; it considers life a simple 'us' against 'them' struggle. |
I suspect you don't understand what moral imperative means. It implies that a person's value system compels them to take certain actions for what they see as moral reasons. For example most people who see a thug mugging a pensioner will feel a moral imperative to intervene either by direct confrontation or by calling the police. Shrugging their shoulders and doing nothing won't be an option for them.
In a Bosnian context, many Serbs were of the opinion that the main Bosnian Muslim party, the SDA, was controlled to a significant extent by Islamic fundamentalists who were driven by a moral imperative to create a new Islamic constitutional order upon the collapse of communism (Bosnia was by that point on the brink of having an absolute Muslim majority courtesy of a major post-WWII demographic shift due to a disparity in birth rates) based on what the Koran states should happen in Islamic majority countries. On that basis, many Serbs (who had formerly been the majority at least when the Croats are factored out at about 48%) felt a moral imperative to oppose the SDA by any means necessary as they were none too keen on a future that revolved around a return to dhimmi status:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi
That ultimately led to this:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsNc3F2220k
Ratko Mladic was driven by a lot more than simple them and us tribalism in other words. Odds on he perceived his actions to be morally justified and a legitimate act of self-defence based on the legacy of at least 500 years worth of conflict between Islamic and Orthodox Christian belief systems in that part of the world. Only 117 years had passed since the end of Ottoman control in Bosnia when Serbs had held very much a second class status arguably similar to African Americans in pre-Civil War times and rightly or wrongly the end of Yugoslavia and a move to SDA control under people like Alija Izetbegovic (his surname arguably translated to "son of Izet the slave owner") in an independent Bosnia was equated with a return to that era.
Attempting to link that sort of scenario to what happens in Scotland by using the nebulous term "nationalism" to cover both scenarios is a grotesque and deeply paranoid exercise in demonisation. Nobody on either side of the constitutional debate in Scotland feels compelled on the basis of their personal value system to lob mortar shells towards communities where their political opponents live or to do the sorts of things that Ratko Mladic got up to in the days following that video clip. Quite the reverse in actual fact because Scottish nationalism lacks a clear moral imperative. |
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Holebender
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 1368
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | So now you equate nationalism with murderers.
Could you try to be more offensive? |
| Aventinian wrote: | | As for my views on the subject: I don't believe that Nationalism leads to evil things, I believe it is evil in itself. |
Oh well done!
What would you call someone who lumps a whole group of people with some shared ideology together and tars them all with one negative brush? I think bigot would be the most accurate term.
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Alasdair
'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 433
Location: Clydesdale
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | So now you equate nationalism with murderers.
Could you try to be more offensive? |
| Aventinian wrote: | | As for my views on the subject: I don't believe that Nationalism leads to evil things, I believe it is evil in itself. |
Oh well done!
What would you call someone who lumps a whole group of people with some shared ideology together and tars them all with one negative brush? I think bigot would be the most accurate term. |
I think I might go for prejudiced rather than bigotted given the latter's connotations towards race and religion.
bu'hey don't mind me, I've just got a bee in me bonnet over the use of certain words
Actually, I didn't mind the initial:
| Aventinian wrote: | | I wonder that it's not simply a matter of terminology. It would be rather odd to say I "demonise" murderers simply because I think murder is wrong, for example. Ultimately however, I imagine Agent feels the same way about Nationalism - and quite correctly so in my mind. |
I don't agree with it, I but I think it merely demonstrates a strength of feeling, regardless of how misplaced or prejudiced it might be 
Aventinian,
Was the original point that you believe there is something wrong at a base level with nationalism, rather than directly equating it to murder?
_________________
"We look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilisation." - Voltaire |
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agentmancuso
Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2008
Location: Darkest Lanarkshire
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| William_Cleland wrote: | | I suspect you don't understand what moral imperative means. It implies that a person's value system compels them to take certain actions for what they see as moral reasons. |
Nationalism has no moral imperative. It is purely determinist. Because you are born in a certain tribe, therefore you should defend that tribe's interest.
| Quote: | | Ratko Mladic was driven by a lot more than simple them and us tribalism in other words. Odds on he perceived his actions to be morally justified and a legitimate act of self-defence based on the legacy of at least 500 years worth of conflict between Islamic and Orthodox Christian belief systems in that part of the world. |
Such a perception of the world is them and us tribalism. Tribalist thugs do not as a general rule admit to being tribalist thugs. Instead they invest great energy into neurotically charged 'good v bad' versions of history, and excuse actions that they themselves would find offensive in other contexts on the need to defend their side from aggression. Most people will be more familiar with the identical case a few miles across the Irish Channel.
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Liberty does not mean all good things, or the absence of all evils
Hayek |
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