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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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 Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Each outcome will have to be defined: primarily the meaning of Scottish independence |
I think most folk have a pretty fair idea what independence means, but, in any case, what we mean by independence can be defined more clearly and publicly by the cross-party and non-party pro-independence campaigners during the actual referendum campaign. There is no need to include a long-winded definition in the actual referendum question. That is just the sort of unnecessary complication beloved of opponents of a referendum who fear that their side would lose. As for defining the implications of a rejection of independence, again, I see no reason to spell this out in the actual question asked. A rejection would mean the status quo would continue, or possibly that there might be some modifications of that status quo. Again, the opponents of independence can spell out exactly what they mean more clearly and publicly during the referendum campaign, but there is no need to complicate the actual question.
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Scotland86
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 249
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:24 am Post subject: |
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Jesus you really think that this nit picking will change anyones views or ideas in anyway?
What else can independence mean than FULL CONTROL.
If the referendum is rejected then we stay as we are. until the next idea is put forward. |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5558
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Scotland86 wrote: | Jesus you really think that this nit picking will change anyones views or ideas in anyway?
What else can independence mean than FULL CONTROL.
If the referendum is rejected then we stay as we are. until the next idea is put forward. |
Evidently you think that - after all, you were the one 'nitpicking' on another thread over the wording of referendum questions and polling data. On which point, I agree with you: evidently in polls when the realities of Scottish independence (the potential loss of British citizenship, the break up of the UK, the destruction of the British Army) are spelled out, less people opt for it.
As for independence meaning 'full control' that's evidently false since it is SNP policy to be independent within the EU, and to abide by international law. I once started a thread challenging people here to define independence without relation to the United Kingdom: it was, as I admittedly expected beforehand, something of a flop.
As for staying as we are: that is false - no political party at the moment is arguing with conviction for the status quo, and I'd go as far as to say very few people are completely satisfied with the current division of powers. I think the people of Scotland ought to be reminded that Unionists generally aren't fighting for the status quo. |
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agentmancuso
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2910
Location: Gone to the forest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | I once started a thread challenging people here to define independence without relation to the United Kingdom: it was, as I admittedly expected beforehand, something of a flop. |
Hardly surprising; it's quite specifically the United Kingdom that we want to be independent from.
| Quote: | | I think the people of Scotland ought to be reminded that Unionists generally aren't fighting for the status quo. |
Currently Unionists aren't proposing a great deal else of any tangible nature.
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It's murder every week at Firhill. |
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Scotland86
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 249
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| I didnt nit pick i simply said that a referendum bill should not be flooded with several choices. |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5558
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | Hardly surprising; it's quite specifically the United Kingdom that we want to be independent from. |
So, in fact, it's not a desire for independence, but rather (to quote John Swinney) a desire to "tell the Brits to get off"?
How tolerant and civic of you.
| Quote: | | Currently Unionists aren't proposing a great deal else of any tangible nature. |
That's what the Calman Commission is for. The fact that we propose a method by which to analyse what is actually best rather than reverse-engineering a political settlement based on emotion is something to be proud of. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | That's what the Calman Commission is for |
Delay and confusion is what the Calman Commission is for. That is it's purpose, to buy time by creating the impression of doing something about Scottish aspirations while in practice doing little or nothing that could not have been done by the parties concerned without wasting large amounts of time and public money.
There isn't even any certainty that whatever mouse squeak of a conclusion the Calman Commission eventually comes up with will be accepted by all of the parties involved in setting it up. If the Commission is too obviously dancing to Gordon Brown's tune, and if the conclusions are too obviously inadequate and not worth all the time and money spent on them, I can think of several prominent Liberal Democrats who would probably be seeking to dis-associate themselves from such an embarrassment.
| Aventinian wrote: | | we propose a method by which to analyse what is actually best |
In order to "analyse what is best" you have to look at ALL of the options. The fact that the members of the Calman Commission were specifically instructed not to do so, and the fact that they were, all of them, the sort of spineless establishment nonentities who could be relied upon to accept such an instruction, means that little reliance can be placed on their (or rather, their masters') judgement of what is best. Could you imagine Albert Einsten accepting such a restriction on research? Or Leonardo DaVinci? Well, okay, maybe the latter, but only if he was threatened with being burnt at the stake. No such threats were required for this bunch of nobodies. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | agentmancuso wrote: | | Hardly surprising; it's quite specifically the United Kingdom that we want to be independent from. |
So, in fact, it's not a desire for independence, but rather (to quote John Swinney) a desire to "tell the Brits to get off"?
How tolerant and civic of you. |
Absolute nonsense! Scotland is currently independent of every other part of the planet except the UK, so what is your point? There is no reason to desire independence from, say, China because that is already the case. Why should anyone consider independence from anywhere but the UK, and why should such independence have anything to do with telling "the Brits" anything???
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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agentmancuso
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2910
Location: Gone to the forest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | How tolerant and civic of you. |
Oh, I'm very civic, even if a trifle intolerant on occasion.
As you are well aware, there is nothing necessarily intolerant about wanting to withdraw from the United Kingdom. Even to suggest so gives the impression that the real argument has been lost.
| Quote: | | That's what the Calman Commission is for. |
It's certainly what the Calman Commission claimed it was for. It's looking pretty thin already.
_________________
It's murder every week at Firhill. |
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