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Blackadder · Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: General Scots History

Here you go Squeegee ...

Would you like to begin??? Very Happy

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Laird of Treverlen

Blackadder · Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject:

Oh alright ... I'll kick off ...

The Roman conquest of Britain began in 43 AD, almost a century after Caesar's first invasion. By 80 AD the Roman governor, Agricola, felt secure enough in the south of Britain to begin an invasion of the north, building a string of forts across the Clyde/Forth line and defeating a large force of Scottish tribes at Mons Graupius.

The long-term effect of his campaign, however, was slight. Work on a major fort ... to be the base for 5000 soldiers ... at Inchtuthill, on the Tay, was abandoned before it was finished, and the legions withdrew south.

In 123 AD the Emperor Hadrian decided to seal the frontier against the northern tribes and had Hadrian's Wall built, stretching from the Solway Firth to the Tyne ... and was the first formal division of the island of Britain.

Twenty years later, the Romans again ventured north and built the Antonine Wall between the Clyde and the Forth. This was manned for about 40 years, but thereafter the Romans, frustrated by the inhospitable terrain of the Highlands, largely gave up their attempt to subjugate the north, and instead adopted a policy of containment.

It was the Romans who produced the first written accounts of the peoples of Scotland. In the second century AD, the Greco-Egyptian geographer Ptolemy drew up the first-known map of Scotland, which identified seventeen tribal territories. Other descriptions were less scientific, compounding the mixture of fear and contempt with which the Romans regarded their Caledonian/Pictish neighbours.

Dio Cassius, a Roman commentator writing in 197 AD, informed his readers: 'They live in huts, go naked and unshod. They mostly have a democratic government, and are much addicted to robbery. They can bear hunger and cold and all manner of hardship; they will retire into their marshes and hold out for days with only their heads above water, and in the forest they will subsist on barks and roots.'

Okay ... discuss ... and points will be added if you can raise a laugh or two along the way ... Twisted Evil

Have your points deducted and I won't be responsible for what happens after!!! Rolling Eyes

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Laird of Treverlen

Runaway Weegie · Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:08 pm Post subject:

Well this is cosy...

I think that the Romans created the Picts. I don't mean that the Romans woke up one morning and thought "hmm, let's create a barbarian nation", but that it was the experience of Roman occupation further south that first gave the Picts a sense of a common Pictish identity. Before that they were just a bunch of Smertae, Taezali and Caledonii.

Smertae is a great tribal name by the way. It always makes me think of an organisation of evil villains from a James Bond movie.

But don't the Roman sources tell us there were two Pictish peoples, or rather tribal confederations? The Maeatae and the Deucaledonii - or something, I can't remember the exact names offhand and am too lazy to look them up.

Runaway Weegie · Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:14 pm Post subject:

I think it was the 400 years of Roman occupation that made Pictish and Brittonic into different languages too. Britons became Roman citizens and thought of themselves as Romans, they borrowed thousands of words from Latin. The Picts to the north were antagonistic towards Rome much of the time, so they would not have borrowed as many words from Latin. In the late Roman period Brittonic experienced major changes in pronunciation and grammar, there's no reason to believe the same changes happened in Pictish. I suspect Pictish was more influenced by Goidelic.

Oh and the other thing. I missed last week's History of Scotland because reception was too crappy, does anyone know when the series will be shown on BBC England? We pick that up perfectly.

Blackadder · Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject:

Huvnae a clue what BBC England is! Unless it's BBC2, 3, 4, 6 or 6!!! Shocked

I seem to remember the Maeatae (how do you prounounce that? My-Tie??) being called the Miathi in my school during history. And they had close ties to the Votadini. Was their main oppidum at Trimontium??
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Laird of Treverlen

Runaway Weegie · Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:36 pm Post subject:

BBC England is the one everyone else gets when the announcer tells you this great movie is about to come on, except for viewers in Scotland who'll be getting Indoor Bowling from Coatbridge.

Is a Mai Tai not a cocktail?

It's got Maeatae in Wiki but well, thae Romans were a bit vague on spelling at times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeatae

It would be pronounced My A Tie, obviously they were terribly well dressed.

It also says on Wiki their tribal capital was Dun Maeatae, modern Dumyat hill near Stirling.

Blackadder · Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject:

So they coulda been called the MYAT??? (my 'at) Or just m-y-a-t ... with the Latinisation being Miathi or Maeatae?

I mean look at the variations of Votadini, Guotodin, Gododdin ... somewhere in there is the original of what the natives called themselves. I don't think they went around saying, "So, who are we then?" That's too reminiscent of the pygmy Werafookawi tribe who lived in the middle of Africa's long grass regions!!!

Someone may have to explain that to Carol!!! Twisted Evil

Just a thought but if the Maeatae were first mentioned well into the Roman establishment of 180 ... maybe they were the remnants of tribes massacred by the Romans, gathering under a new leader whose name was Mayat or something similar ...
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Laird of Treverlen

Blackadder · Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:19 pm Post subject:

I remember reading also about the Taexali/Taezali and the Deucaledonii/Dicalydones. Then there was the Lugi, Cornavii, Epidii, Caereni, Carnonacae, Vacomagi, Venicones and Creones ... which could be a corruption of Cruithne.

I know we've discussed this a little elsewhere, but I thought we could do with a little basework here to establish the way the thread should go ...
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Laird of Treverlen

Runaway Weegie · Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject:

All the variations belong to different periods of time though. They were always quite certain what they called themselves, it's just that from time to time those pesky youngsters would come along with a racy and fancy new pronunciation, influenced by the late Iron Age version of punk videos.

Votadini was what they called themselves in early Roman times. It was pronounced Wotadini. By late Roman times, trendy youngsters had started to pronounce it as Gwotadini because they had a slovenly pronunciation and no respect for their elders. Young people today etc etc. Then the trendy youngsters grew up and Gwotadini became how stuffy auld gits like me pronounced things, and the new generation of trendy youngsters started to pronounce it Gwodadhini laaaaik because they'd been listening to too much Late Roman hip hop music and had no respect for their elders. Young people today, etc etc. Add, stir, repeat. That's the recipe for language change.

Anyway, that's how Votadini ended up eventually as Gododdin. And that's a good and useful thing, because knowing the sequence of sound changes means we can date the language and the texts.

I still haven't found out what Maeatae comes from in Celtic. The -ae ending looks like a genitive though - the possessive ending. That's pretty usual in tribal names because they were the tribe of the whatever.

Runaway Weegie · Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:35 pm Post subject:

I was doing a google on the origin of the name Maeatae and came across this -

http://www.archive.org/details/archaeologyandpl012734mbp

It's the entire text of FW Wainwrights 'Archaeology And Place Names And History'

It looks like it's packed full of revelant information, so I'm off to have a read.

Runaway Weegie · Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:38 pm Post subject:

I meant FT Wainwright

and relevant

brain farts...

Jimbo · Our Scotland = 2nd Job! Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 1086

Pronounced My a ti.

Been up Dumyat many times. What a fantastic view. You have a panorama to the west and south for many, many miles. The place was well chosen.

One peculiarity about the place is, that regardless of how heavy it snows, it never seems to lie on Dumyat. Well, not the part that we can see from where we live.

Don't remember where, but I recall reading that Arthur was killed by the Maeatae at Camlann.

Local legend (according to a local) (I'm a Shettleston incomer) has it that Arthur occupied the old Roman fortress at Carmuirs (now within in the bounds of Falkirk Golf Club). The fortress was built on a hill overlooking the river Carron, which at one time flowed down what is now the 18th fairway of the golf club before turning sharply left to wend it's way down to the Forth. There are also other places in the area whose names are associated with Arthur. Arthur's O'n, Arthur's Table, The Round Table etc.

I was of the opinon that the Round Table was a group of do-gooders, but Matt (my local historian friend) assures me it is the local name for an area of Carron Dams.

Blackadder · Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject:

Blackadder · Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:56 pm Post subject:

Jimboneheid ... there's some nice views here ...

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/6410
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Laird of Treverlen

Jimbo · Our Scotland = 2nd Job! Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 1086

Nah, BA.

Isn't Dumyat a corruption of Dun Maeatae?

Deduct 20 points for jumping to conclusions without having your theory verified by our resident linguist.

Blackadder · Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:02 am Post subject:

Excuse me ... but I'll have you know I have MEDALS for jumping to conclusions! So Dun Myat or Dun Miathi or Dun Maeatae ...

I'll keep my points thanks ... and you can lose 30 points cos you're an oik!!! Twisted Evil

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Laird of Treverlen

Jimbo · Our Scotland = 2nd Job! Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 1086

Can't get your link to open BA. Sad

Deduct 100 points for posting a duff link. Very Happy

Blackadder · Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:10 am Post subject:

Works fine for me ... re-add 120 points for survivalist thinking!!! Very Happy

Try it again!!!

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/6410

If it still doen't work ... then you're a Dumtwat!!! Twisted Evil

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Laird of Treverlen

Runaway Weegie · Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:18 am Post subject:

Well I still dunno what Maeatae comes from, so all I know is that it means "of something or someone". It disnae have to have been a person. You get the same ending in Smertae. Smertae seems to have some connection with the word for dead. (s)mertos. Of the dead people? of the killers?

maia- meant big in ancient Celtic. So maybe it's the tribe of the big something (or someone).

I know Shettleston well. It's also an interesting name. It doesn't look like it's Gaelic, but it is. I'll have to track down the proper sources but it was first attested in the 12th century as Villa Seadna, a Latin translation of an unrecorded Gaelic Baile Seadna "Seadna's farm". (Pronounced Shedna). This was later taken into Lowland Scots where toon replaced the Gaelic baile and the name became Shednatun. This was later corrupted into Shettleston because of an imagined association with weavers' shuttles.

I can't get the link to work either by the way.

Jimbo · Our Scotland = 2nd Job! Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 1086

Belay that. Opened it after making adjustments to PC. 500 points to me for technical know how. Very Happy

In image 5, you could see my house if it wasn't for the mist, the trees and the buildings in front of it.

In image 11, the brazier on top of the cairn normally has a Saltire tied to it. I wonder if those guys in the picture nicked it? Shocked