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Jimbo
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 1086
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 Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| agentmancuso wrote: | | Jimbo wrote: | | It was already the personal heraldic device of King William I (William the Lion) when he succeeded his brother Malcolm IV to the throne of Scotland, 1165 - 1214. Prior to that it had no attachment to any other Scottish king. It was adopted as the heraldic symbol for the Scottish kings by King Robert I, 1306 - 1329. |
Yes, I think it came with the de Brus family from France? |
I'm sorry, I didn't phrase this very well.
The Lion Rampant was the heraldic device of William ('the Rough' as he was known then) before he became king. When he became king he retained his own standard rather than adopt his brother's royal standard. He was known as William the Lion after his death, because of his heraldic device, not because of any prowess on the battlefield.
King Robert I, adopted 'The Lion's' standard as his own.
So, when you see these films in which King John Balliol is stripped of his tabard bearing the royal coat of arms, it certainly shouldn't be the Lion Rampant he is wearing.
It is thought that a long line of Scottish kings may have kept lions. Both Edinburgh and Stirling castles have buildings known as 'The Lion's Den'.
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William_Cleland
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 1180
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: |
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The Lion thing is obviously extremely tenuous as it has been so widely used elsewhere for heraldic purposes but Risto wasn't joking about there being a possible bagpipe angle:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOMvcbVn8SM
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Risto the Great
Finding Ma' Way
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| William_Cleland wrote: | The Lion thing is obviously extremely tenuous as it has been so widely used elsewhere for heraldic purposes but Risto wasn't joking about there being a possible bagpipe angle:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOMvcbVn8SM |
Well hunted William!
That tune is translated as "woman's dance".
The time signature might not sound Scottish or Celtic but the scales sound reasonably similar. Would you agree?
Any thoughts on the origins of the bagpipes in Scotland? They feature very heavily in Macedonian culture.
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The Scottish and the Macedonians have bagpipes, lion symbols and are together victims of modern nationalism. |
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agentmancuso
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2910
Location: Gone to the forest
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| Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Risto the Great wrote: |
Any thoughts on the origins of the bagpipes in Scotland? |
Common European heritage I think. Primitive sorts of bagpipe were played right across the continent at one time.
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Risto the Great wrote: | | Any thoughts on the origins of the bagpipes in Scotland? |
Bagpipes - not your modern Scottish great highland warpipe, obviously, but a form of pipes using a bag - are mentioned in the Old Testament of the Bible, and also in the writings of an Athenian dramatist of the 5th Century BC. So they existed in both Ancient Greece and the Middle East. They also existed in India long before Scottish soldiers of the British army arrived there. The very first pipes of any kind were probably made by some shepherd, with time on his hands while keeping watch over a flock of sheep, cutting a small wooden branch from a bush, hollowing it out, and putting a few holes in it. It was probably a while later before some other shepherd had the idea of attaching a sheep's stomach or some other part of an animal to the pipe to make a bag for wind. But the fact is, bagpipes were very widespread from early times and it is pretty much impossible to say exactly where they came from. But it almost certainly wasn't Scotland. The preferred musical instrument, and weapon of war intended to intimidate the enemy, of the ancient Caledonians, was a type of extremely long, twisted trumpet called a carynx .Examples of this instrument have in fact been found in Scotland, for instance, in Banffshire. Bagpipes were used by some units of the Roman Army. Remember that army wasn't actually "Roman", it came from North Africa, the Middle East, the Balkans, anywhere that was part of the Empire, and these different units from different places maintained part of their own culture (just as the Scottish regiments in India did). It may have been the invading Roman army that introduced bagpipes to Scotland. |
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Risto the Great
Finding Ma' Way
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:57 am Post subject: |
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Great stuff Dave!
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The Scottish and the Macedonians have bagpipes, lion symbols and are together victims of modern nationalism. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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I can't swear to this but many say that where you have sheep and the seaside together then you have bagpipes.
One hopes the sheep are used in the production of the instrument and not in the inspiration of the muse.
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