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Runaway Weegie · Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:24 pm Post subject:

I've never really understood the Greek objection to the name Macedonia. It's like Germany objecting to the name France because the original Franks were a Germanic tribe. Actually it's worse, because it's by no means certain that the original Macedonians were Greek.

Greece has the worst record in Europe in terms of how it treats its linguistic minorities. It's even worse than France, France at least acknowledges the existence of Breton and Basque as regional patois. The Greek government refuses to admit that any of its citizens outside Thrace speak a different language to Greek. In Thrace the Turkish minority has certain legal rights due to the terms of the Treaty of Sevres of 1920. As well as Macedonians, Greece also has populations of Albanians, Arumanians (who speak a Latin language related to Romanian), Pomaks (Muslims who speak Bulgarian, or Macedonian, depending on your point of view), and some others.

It's not just Greeks and Macedonians though, if you have a few decades spare, listen to Hungarians and Romanians argue about Transylvania. Or Serbs arguing with Albanians about Kosova/Kosovo.

Albanian is one of my favourite languages. The Albanians have lived in the Balkans for a very long time indeed. Like Welsh and Basque, their language is full of old Latin loanwords dating to the time of the Roman Empire. The Albanians, the Britons, and the Basques were the only three peoples conquered by Rome who managed to preserve their own languages.

Looking at the Balkans makes me grateful that Scotland has well defined frontiers that are not seriously disputed.

Runaway Weegie · Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject:

Not the Treaty of Sevres of 1920, that was the one when Turkey got carved up. I should have said the Treaty of Lausanne of 1923.

agentmancuso · Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject:

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

agentmancuso · Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject:

Thanks for pointing that out Dave. I'd no idea.
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agentmancuso · Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject:

Risto the Great · Finding Ma' Way Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 11

I completely understand why you felt compelled to write about Berwick.
Even though I was not aware of its sensitivity in relation to Scotland.
I certainly am now!

I am happy to discuss the Balkan issues further, but feel it is inappropriate in this forum. Other than to highlight how ethnicities have been swept under the carpet in Greece and how the Greeks have managed to achieve that.

Here is an example of the kind of actions as recent as 20 years ago!

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=386

But again, I certainly don't want to troll here. Would similar actions have happpened in Scotland's history? How much intermarriage happens in Scotland? Is it frowned upon when a Scot marries an English? The offspring will usually be compromised. Am I sounding like Hitler yet? Wink

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Risto the Great · Finding Ma' Way Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 11

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

Runaway Weegie · Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject:

Och Berwick Schmerwick. Wasn't Carlisle stolen from us too? Mind you, Berwick's prettier. I always thought Carlisle was a bit of a dump.

Nae worries Risto, don't worry about going off topic - it doesn't seem to stop anyone else. In my opinion it's the interesting irrelevances that very often make threads worth reading. Like when a discussion on ancient Scottish history takes an unexpected diversion into the southern Balkans. Finding out about wider connections and similarities gives us all a greater perspective on our own concerns.

So in the spirit of digression, the Arumanians are one of the Balkan Romance speaking peoples. Traditionally they were semi-nomadic sheep herders in the high mountains. There are several hundred thousand them scattered around various Balkan countries. Exact numbers are disputed, these things are highly politicised in the Balkans. There is also a group called the Megleno-Romanians who live in northern Greece and southern Macedonia. There are only around 5000 speakers. In Istria in Croatia there are perhaps 1000 remaining speakers of Istro-Romanian. The Romanian of Romania is classified as Daco-Romanian by linguists. All four of these languages are very closely related to one another.

The origin of the Romanians is one of the biggest disputes in Balkan history. And Balkan history is certainly noted for its disputes. Scottish history is a simple tale by comparison. Scottish historians disagree about details, Balkan historians disagree about fundamentals - like whether the Romanians descend from the Roman colonists of Dacia or from later migrations from the central Balkans, or whether Albanians descend from ancient Illyrians or not, or Greeks telling Macedonians that Macedonians don't exist.

Of course there have been those in this forum who have made the claim that the Scottish nation does not exist. The difference is that in Greece such insanity is official policy. The similarity is that in both cases it's politically motivated.

Ancient Macedonian may have been an aberrant Greek dialect, or a language most closely related to Greek within Indoeuropean, or more closely related to another ancient Balkan language. Whatever the case, it came under strong Greek influence at an early date. Some historians (I can't remember the source and am too lazy to look it up) said that Cleopatra, who was descended from Macedonians, spoke Macedonian as well as Greek, Egyptian, Aramaic and Latin. Though I dunno which Cleopatra it was, I believe there were several.

Now I've mentioned Egyptian princesses, it's the ideal cue for someone to talk about the legend of the Egyptian princess Scota who is supposedly our great-great-whatever-great-grannie.

I don't think anyone counts Scots marrying English people as intermarriage. I married an Englishman. The fact that both of us are men, and he's English, never caused anyone to raise an eyebrow. The only difference it made was that when we got married I wore a kilt and he didn't.

William_Cleland · Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject:

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

William_Cleland · Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject:

Oops, sorry Dave should have read the thread more carefully. Embarassed

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Risto the Great · Finding Ma' Way Joined: 09 Nov 2008 Posts: 11

Jimbo · Our Scotland = 2nd Job! Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 1086

Hi Risto,

agentmancuso · Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject:

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809