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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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 Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Scotland86 wrote: | | am i meant to give a flying f***? |
You have already thoroughly proved your ignorance about this and several other questions to the folk here on this Our Scotland forum. I don't suppose anybody here really expects you to do much more than just wallow in your ignorance. The reason for continuing to argue with you is not because of any great hopes of getting you to see reason, but simply because other people besides you will read this, and, as a matter of principle, ignorance should be countered with reason. | Scotland86 wrote: | | Hamas fired several rockets from a heavily populated neighbourhoods today |
The entire territory of Gaza is "a heavily populated neighbourhood". It's very small, and, because of previous Israeli aggressions causing folk to go there as refugees, and because the Israeli siege prevents folk from getting OUT of Gaza, it's very crowded. There just aren't any sparsely populated parts of Gaza. They are under attack by Israel, and some of them are shooting back. They are shooting back extremely ineffectively, but some of them are shooting back because they think that is better than being killed by the Israelis without even attempting to fight back.
When the Israelis use their high tech weaponry they claim to be aiming at specific targets, but they know perfectly well what they are doing is a slaughter. It was reported in the news that they had killed some prominent member of Hamas. And, oh dear, they had also killed lots of members of his family as well, such a pity. All that stuff about Hamas "using them as human shields" is crap. The fact is, the members of Hamas live at home with their families. Just like everybody else in Gaza does. Just like I do. If you target where people live, then of course you are going to slaughter lots of "innocents". | Scotland86 wrote: | | whos fault is it that civvies are being killed? |
It is the fault of those who use weapons of indiscriminate destruction against family homes. In this particular case, it is the fault of the state of Israel.
By the way, not all Israelis support the murderous policies of "their" government. Some brave Israelis do try to stand up to the warfare state.
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Scotland86
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 249
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| If the Palestinians are so badly done by why does Hamas not stop firing back then the world would have to take notice that the Israelis were firing with no reason. That is because the Israelis are only attacking Gaza because of these rocket attacks and as i said so would i. Why would the Israelis let them out? they have the whole problam inside walls why let them get out to fight them from within? that would be suicide. As long as Hamas refuses a ceasefire and calls for days of wrath then Israel should and will continue to attack. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Scotland86 wrote: | | If the Palestinians are so badly done by |
In the early 1940s, millions of Jews were exterminated in Europe. As well as Germans, those who took part in this holocaust included folk of many other European nationalities. However, none of the guilty were Palestinian. Yet when Europeans and Americans with guilt feelings decided to offer a "homeland" to the Jews, it was the Palestinians who were expected to give up what little they had. Yes, I would say that paying the price for other people's crimes is being hard done by. The reason that so many Palestinians are now crowded into the Gaza strip is because of that original decision by Europeans and Americans, and because they have continued to blindly support Israel in all the crimes that state has committed since.
| Scotland86 wrote: | | why does Hamas not stop firing back |
Because it's against their religion.
Turning the other cheek is a Christian idea. Hardly ever put into practice by Christians, mind you, and plenty of practicing Christians had no difficulty with serving Adolf Hitler.
(Yes, a small minority of Christians in Nazi Europe did oppose what was being done to the Jews. And yes, a small minority of Israelis are opposing what is being done to the Palestinians.)
Nevertheless, while Christians hardly ever practice turning the other cheek, the idea does exist in Christianity. That idea has been used by a tiny minority of Christians, such as Rev Martin Luther King, for instance. But you can't appeal to a sentiment which doesn't even exist. It doesn't exist for Muslim fundamentalists like Hamas. They believe that it is a sin NOT to fight back. They believe that, no matter how hopeless the odds, if they die in battle, then they will go straight to Paradise as martyrs. Therefore it is worth fighting back even if death is a certainty.
In Christian belief, suicide is a mortal sin and will send you straight to Hell. By contrast, some Islamic scholars believe that, provided it is a case of a suicidal fighting back against the enemies of Islam, you can go straight to Heaven.
And even if you could convince nearly every single person of the million and a half people in the Gaza strip to practice a Christian idea that Christians themselves have hardly ever practiced, there would still be a few who would think it worth becoming martyrs, and these few would be used by Israel as justification for attacking the people of Gaza as a whole.
| Scotland86 wrote: | | the world would have to take notice that the Israelis were firing with no reason |
The Israelis ARE attacking the people of Gaza for no good reason, and, despite the built-in guilt feelings of many Europeans and Americans towards the Jews, the world IS starting to notice that it's the Palestinians who are the victims this time. You and George Dubbya Bush are amongst the tiny minority of the world who haven't noticed this.
| Scotland86 wrote: | | Why would the Israelis let them out? they have the whole problam inside walls |
The Nazis used the same argument.
They first enclosed the Jews inside the walls of ghettoes, and yes, they even managed to find some Jews who would administer these ghettoes on behalf of the Nazis, just as Israel is hoping for a "regime change" which will put more "moderate" Palestinians in charge. The Nazis managed to find some Jews who would administer ghettoes, enforcing Nazi restrictions on the movement of the population, their contact with the outside world, their ability to trade, etc. Then later, of course, they enclosed the "problem" within the walls of concentration camps.
The Palestinians are certainly "concentrated" in the Gaza strip, but it's debatable whether it counts as a ghetto or as a concentration camp. What is certain is that slaughter of the population is now happening. To many people, it begins to look like Israel is intent on solving its "Palestinian Problem" in a way similar to how others sought a final solution to the "Jewish Problem". |
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Scotland86
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 249
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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Dave for a start i aint accepting any religious nonsesense as an excuse to lay down there weapons and say there ready to discuss a ceasefire. As for the Israelis firing for no reason, are you blind to the hundreds of rockets pouring out of Gaza? That in itself is reason enough to fire back.
I am sick and tired of do gooders always trying to get there noses involved. The sooner the French numpty has been and did his yapping and goes home the sooner the Israelis can send in the heavy tanks the better. Just run them into the sea that will solve the problam in one swift move. |
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Scott2006
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 663
Location: Outside Glasgow
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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You seem to be very interested in blood Scotland86. Are you thrilled by the prospect of seeing it spilled live on your tv?
The innocent women and children in Gaza are as human as you or I, and deserve to have their human rights respected.
Nothing will be gained by the deaths of hundreds or thousands of disposessed people living a hand to mouth existence.
Israel will not be safe until the freedoms and standards of living of the peoples surrounding them are raised and over many years peace is worked for.
If firing rockets into Israel is wrong, so is sending fighter jets into a crowded strip of land bombing indiscriminately.
I believe there is no god or gods and killing for a religion is stupid and senseless. State sponsored murder is a crime and Israel cannot escape they are acting disproportionately.
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Scotland deserves a First rate Parliament for a First rate People
The Scottish Parliamentarians who voted for Treaty of Union in 1706 and signed away Independence had been voted for by less than 2% of the Scottish population |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Scotland86 wrote: | | i aint accepting any religious nonsesense |
Regardless of whether you accept any religious nonsense or not, it is sheer stupidity to not notice the extent to which the world that you live in is shaped by religious nonsense. Your colleague George Dubbya Bush (I call him your colleague because he is one of the minority of people in the world who, like yourself, supports what Israel is doing) is a Christian fundamentalist. Many European Christians felt guilty about what happened to the Jews in Europe in the 1940s. American Christians had fewer feelings of guilt about this, but Christian fundamentalists in the USA supported the establishment of the state of Israel because, according to their reading of the Book of Revelations, the Return of the Jews to the Holy Land is one of the Signs of the approach of Armageddon and the Second Coming. Quite literally, they supported the establishment of the state of Israel because they thought this would lead to a global war in which most of the Earth's population would be annihilated, and they were in favour of this, because they see this as God's will. Of course, it may not bother you that the (still) President of the USA believes this; and that he might yet choose to leave office with a bang.
Historically speaking, Christianity has always been an extremely aggressive religion. You can find that line about turning the other cheek in the New Testament, but you can also find "I come not to bring peace, but a sword", and Christian soldiers have generally been eager in marching as to war. As for the state of Israel, it is a sectarian religious state set up for people of the Jewish religion, and there is nothing at all in the Jewish religion about "turning the other cheek". So why do you demand that Muslims like Hamas do this?
| Scotland86 wrote: | | Just run them into the sea that will solve the problam |
YOU might believe that, but (still) President George Dubbya Bush doesn't, and neither do the large numbers of other Christian fundamentalists in positions of power in the American government and positions of command in the American military. They believe that it will just be one more step on the road to Armaggedon, but a very welcome step towards that final global conflict nevertheless. Of course YOU don't believe that, but no matter. They are in positions of power, and you are not. As far as THEY are concerned, you can go to Hell. |
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Scotland86
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 249
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| As long as Hamas are firing rockets into civilian areas of Israel or any area of Israel for that matter i will continue to support the Israelis in the defence of there people. There is no right and wrong to this just the sheer fact Hamas broke the ceasefire that was in place by firing rockets into Israel. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| Scotland86 wrote: | | i will continue to support the Israelis |
Well of course you will.
You have no choice.
It's all fore-ordained, you know. The fact that folk like you will support the Israelis during the End Times is predicted in the Book of Revelations........ |
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Scotland86
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 249
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:16 am Post subject: |
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Dave you support Hamas so dont start criticising my choice to go against the do gooders.
I mean come on the protests in London for "peace" were full of riots does anyone smell the hypocricy? |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| Scotland86 wrote: | | Dave you support Hamas |
That is a profoundly illogical thing to say.
If, for example, Argentina was to invade Uruguay, I would condemn this.
However, it would NOT follow from my condemnation that I therefore support the government of Uruguay.
Just for the record, I don't support the government of Uruguay, or Argentina, or Gaza, or Israel, or anywhere else, for that matter. |
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Red Justice
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 758
Location: Kirkcaldy, Fife
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| Scotland86 wrote: | Dave you support Hamas so dont start criticising my choice to go against the do gooders.
I mean come on the protests in London for "peace" were full of riots does anyone smell the hypocricy? |
The only trouble caused at the London Gaza protest was by the police. They trapped London protesters in an underpass.
The media formulate lies. I noticed at Edinburgh the pigs had cameras to film the demonstrators. In the USA protesters have the best idea. Send copwatch squads out to film the police behaviour and have a genuine record of demonstrators engaged in peaceful protest.
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“For socialists, independence is not about the colour or type of flag flying on our public buildings. It is about creating a better society. It is about putting people before profit"
Tommy Sheridan
http://scottishsocfree.blogspot.com |
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Scotland86
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 249
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:26 am Post subject: |
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Red its always the same at these protests. The protestors blame the police. Pictures were all over the news of Pro-Palestine campaigners wrecking blockades throwing missiles (not the type Hamas are firing are innocents) And in the midst of all this there was no sight of an underpass.
Dave it isnt illogical. You support the calls for Israel to pull out and stop and hostilities therefore at this moment you are backing the Hamas cause. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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All government is, ultimately, based on terrorism, whether historical or current, whether latent or active. This is, of course, as true of the British state as of any other, but this particular discussion isn't about the British state.
At the end of the Second World War, Palestine was ruled by Britain under an international mandate. The founders of the Israeli state were members of an organisation which carried out the killings of members of the British armed forces. For instance, three British army sergeants were captured and then later executed by a terrorist group which included a future prime minister of Israel. Another future prime minister of Israel was involved in the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which killed 91 people and seriously injured 46 more. The Israeli justification for the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem was that it was, at the time, used by the British armed forces; but only a minority of the people killed in the attack were in fact British.
The rulers of the Israeli state are the inheritors of terrorism and are involved in terror at this present day. The same is, of course, true of the Hamas authorities in Gaza.
| Scotland86 wrote: | | Dave you support Hamas |
| I wrote: | That is a profoundly illogical thing to say.
If, for example, Argentina was to invade Uruguay, I would condemn this.
However, it would NOT follow from my condemnation that I therefore support the government of Uruguay.
Just for the record, I don't support the government of Uruguay, or Argentina, or Gaza, or Israel, or anywhere else, for that matter. |
| Scotland86 wrote: | | You support the calls for Israel to pull out and stop and hostilities therefore at this moment you are backing the Hamas cause. |
"The Hamas cause" includes imposing restrictions on the freedom of women, "the Hamas cause" includes imposing Muslim religious restrictions even on non-Muslims, etc etc etc. Somebody with opinions like mine might run the risk of being jailed or shot if I lived under a Hamas regime. It is, therefore, inaccurate for you to say that I "support Hamas", or "the Hamas cause".
What I support is humanity. The reasons for stopping hostilities, AND for Israel ending its long-running siege of Gaza, are humanitarian reasons. Nothing at all to do with backing one particular military/political organisation. |
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Scotland86
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 249
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Why dont you start calling for Hamas to stop the rocket fire then the Israelis will pull out and if it stops long enough they are more likely to consider lifting the "siege" etc |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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One of the speakers at an anti-war rally in Glasgow the other day was Barry Levine, speaking on behalf of SCOTTISH JEWS FOR A JUST PEACE. He said "In common with a growing number of Jews in Israel, and internationally, we condemn the airstrikes by Israel on Gaza and the likelihood of a land assault. This level of military action is utterly dis-proportionate and will lead to ever-mounting numbers of civilian casualties".
| Scotland86 wrote: | | Why dont you start calling for Hamas to stop the rocket fire then the Israelis will pull out and if it stops long enough they are more likely to consider lifting the "siege" etc |
You are making the false assumption that Hamas has the ABILITY to entirely stop all targeting of Israel. But Hamas are not the only faction in Gaza, and the only way they could try to entirely prevent other factions from firing on Israel would be if they took violent action against those other factions. While Hamas taking violent action against other factions might suit the Israeli government, it would solve nothing. There isn't even any certainty that Hamas would be victorious over other factions. It might even lead to some more extreme grouping than Hamas emerging in control of Gaza. Some attacks on Israel, probably very ineffective attacks but some attacks nevertheless, are pretty certain to continue as long as the siege continues. And Israel will use these ineffective attacks as a pretext for their far more violent and indiscriminate attacks on Gaza. The only way to break the cycle of violence is to lift the siege. As it is Israel which has been besieging Gaza, since long before these rocket attacks started, it is only Israel which can break the cycle of violence, by lifting the siege. |
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mairead
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4295
Location: Argyll, Alba
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Scotland 86.
I am with you on this one. Hamas are first and foremost terrorists, and have been sending rockets into Israel for some time, killing innocents.
Israel took enough and then retaliated.
Had it been me I'd have retaliated months ago. Surely no one can expect Israel to be bombarded non stop by rockets and just take it?
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I fear not hell, nor English strife,
For Scotland, I will give my life |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| mairead wrote: | | Hamas are first and foremost terrorists |
ALL states are first and foremost terrorist organisations. There are no exceptions to this rule. It's just that, for some states, their terrorist origins are a bit further back in history. In the case of Israel, you don't have to go back very far for their terrorist origins. At the end of the Second World War, Palestine was ruled by Britain under an international mandate. The founders of the Israeli state were members of an organisation which carried out the killings of members of the British armed forces. For instance, three British army sergeants were captured and then later executed by a terrorist group which included a future prime minister of Israel. Another future prime minister of Israel was involved in the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which killed 91 people and seriously injured 46 more. The Israeli justification for the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem was that it was, at the time, used by the British armed forces; but only a minority of the people killed in the attack were in fact British. The rulers of the Israeli state are the inheritors of terrorism and are involved in terror at this present day. The same is, of course, true of the Hamas authorities in Gaza. But there is no reason for calling Hamas "terrorist" without applying the same description to Israel.
However, while there are terrorists in positions of authority on both sides, only one side has the POWER to break the cycle of violence, and that is Israel. It was Israel which started, and has maintained, a siege of Gaza, and it is only Israel which can lift that state of siege, and it is only by lifting that state of siege that there can be any hope of peace.
In the early 1940s, millions of Jews were exterminated in Europe. As well as Germans, those who took part in this holocaust included folk of many other European nationalities. However, none of the guilty were Palestinian. Yet when Europeans with guilt feelings, and American fundamentalist Christians fanatically intent on fulfilling the prophecies in the Book of Reelations, secured a decision to offer a "homeland" to the Jews, it was the Palestinians who were expected to give up what little they had. The reason that so many Palestinians are now crowded into the Gaza strip is because of that original decision by Europeans and Americans, and because Europeans and Americans have continued to blindly support Israel in all the crimes that state has committed since.
The Nazis first enclosed the Jews inside the walls of ghettoes, and they managed to find some Jews who would administer these ghettoes, just as Israel is hoping for a "regime change" which will put more "moderate" Palestinians in charge in Gaza. The Nazis managed to find some Jews who would enforce Nazi restrictions on the movement of the population, their contact with the outside world, their ability to trade, etc. Then later, of course, they enclosed the "problem" within the walls of concentration camps.
The Palestinians are certainly "concentrated" in the Gaza strip, but it's debatable whether it counts as a ghetto or as a concentration camp. What is certain is that slaughter of the population is now happening. To many people, including many Jews here in Scotland and throughout the world, and many Israelis also, it begins to look like Israel is intent on solving its "Palestinian Problem" in a way similar to how some Europeans sought a final solution to the "Jewish Problem".
Even in the unlikely event that you could convince nearly every single person of the million and a half people in the Gaza strip to practice a Christian idea of "turning the other cheek" that Christians themselves have never practiced, there would still be a few who would think it right to fight back, and these few would be used by Israel as justification for attacking the people of Gaza as a whole.
There is no "military solution" to this problem, short of Armageddon. Mind you, (still) President George Dubbya Bush and other fundamentalist Christians have no problem over contemplating a global Armageddon, after all, the Signs that these are the End Times are all around us, and Armaggedon is right there in the Book of Revelations, so it's God's will. But there is no military solution for anybody who thinks annihilating most of the world's population would be a bad thing. So many sensible Jews throughout the world, and many Israelis, are starting to think they should stop playing the fundamentalist Christians' game. And the first steps in that are to stop the offensive AND to lift the siege of Gaza. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion, chief architect of the State of Israel.
“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” David Ben-Gurion, chief architect of the State of Israel.
“We must expel the Arabs and take their places.” David Ben-Gurion, chief architect of the State of Israel.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Scotland86
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 249
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:16 am Post subject: |
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Dave, the US and UK entering Iraq was disproportionate. As is Afghanistan, the US in Vietnam was disproportionate. Almost every war in history will have unfair odds if you look closely enough. The fact is Hamas and the Palestinian people have been firing rockets into Israeli land and killing and injuring there civilians therefore Israel holds the right to fight back to protect there land. If they didnt fight back the world would be screaming that the Israelis are sitting back and allowing the murder of there people.
As for you comments that it may not just be Hamas firing the rockets. My opinion is that if this is the case then yes Hamas should use force to stop it. After all thats why they was elected, everyone shouts about Hamas being democratically elected therefore its there job to do ALL it takes to stop any kind of violence towards Israel in an attempt to seal a ceasefire. Which they are still refusing to be interested in.
I would say just leave them to fight it out. The palestinians will soon learn that they cant win and will stop the rockets. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:56 am Post subject: |
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Israel has been blockading Gaza for years, restricting supplies of essentials like medical supplies, food and fuel. By your logic, I presume the Gazans have the right to retaliate over that?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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