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Rinty · Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:49 am Post subject:

Hamas were elected as they were seen as the only ones who would fight back, it is ludicrous to suggest that those who voted for Hamas did so expecting them to stop retaliations against Israel.

To pretend that this started with hamas rockets a few weeks ago is ridiculous. When the ceasefire eleapsed after six months Israel had stamped all over the spirit of the ceasefire by their blockade.

Its not a matter of Israels response being disproportionate in recent weeks, it is about the systematic opression of palestinians over decades. The very existence of Gaza is testimony to that. 1.5 million people under siege with a neighbouring country controlling all movement in and out of the country, all trade, water, power, medical supplies etc for years, will lead to people fighting back. They will fight back with whatever tools they have.

I really cannot believe that there are still people who swallow the israeli propaganda.

Israel have nuclear weapons and refuse to allow UN inspectors to look at them, they breach UN resolutions as the feel like it and action is never taken. The palestinians are on their own and dont have the support from the UN that other countries in their situation would normally have. Neighbouring countries have israels nukes pointed at them.

Israel are illegally occupying Gaza and the West Bank. they are refusing the right of return for refugees from the 1967 war and before. Whole generations have been raised in the refugee camps in Gaza, Lebanon, and elsewhere. Gaza is one huge refugee camp, and it is under attack from the people who created it in the first place!

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

Scotland86 · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 12 Dec 2008 Posts: 249

I am quite aware of who Rinty is, we have spoke dont you worry your little cotton socks about that.

Anyway im aware that the Israel situation has been on going for many years. That doesnt mean im going to change my mind. And just because i aint changing my views does not mean i havent read what has been said. The Hamas rockets have not only been happening for a couple of weeks they have been a regular part of sounthern Israelis lifes ducking and diving from rockets for as long as some can remember. I have said before and i will say again that i am backing the Israelis on this. I myself would do the same if my people were being terrorised by rocket fire. Back to the proportionate issue, what do you want? Israel to fire as many rockets back into Gaza as is fired out? would that keep you all happy? The reason for the Israeli road blocks is to stop Hamas fighters getting into Israeli communities and causing even more death and suffering.

Rinty · Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:59 pm Post subject:

No the roadblocks were there nefore hamas were in power, the israelis lie about the Fatah being better to deal with but did exactly the ame when Fatah were in charge.

The reason for the roadblcoks is to humiliate the palesitinian people on a daily basis and remind them that they cannot eneter or leave their own country, cannot switch on the lights, go to work, import or export, drink water or get medical treatment, without israels say-so.

Its brutal and identical to the warsaw ghetto.

Scotland86 · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 12 Dec 2008 Posts: 249

Gaza aint a country is it?

We may get somewhere here it would be nice to hear that the Irish roadblocks set up by the British forces were a way to humiliate the Irish people.

Back to Israel what would you people that support Gaza on this be saying if Israel opened the border and then Palenstinians started gunning down Israelis in the market, going to school, sitting in hospital. Would you then be calling for Israel to start fighting back to protect its people?

Rinty · Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:09 pm Post subject:

Yes it is!

It is one half of a country called palestine that Isreal wont allow to exist, wont let them have a port, an airport, control their own borders.

It should be a country but effectively it isnt because israel wont let it be and the world watches and lets this happen.

Israel still occupy the other half on the west bank are are still settling new colonists there daily.

Scotland86 · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 12 Dec 2008 Posts: 249

according to this Palestine is not a country just as i thought.

http://geography.about.com/od/politicalgeography/a/palestinenot.htm

No need for abuse from anyone its just one of several sites that state that it is not a country.

Rinty · Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:25 pm Post subject:

you post a lionk to some guys opinion as evidence?

The proposed palestine state agreed again and again is held back by israel, recognised by the majority of the worlds nations and, to exist fully, needs israel to folloow the UN resolutions requiring it to tretreat the the pre-1967 norders, stop setllemnets in palestine territory and blockading palestines borders.

Israel know that they will never allow this and prefere to repress paelstinians, refugees in their own land. The resultant fightbacks from people fiorced to live as refugess for decades are what israel want to so thaty can use the lame excuse of defending themselves.

You obviously have not ead about the subject and you views are shiockingly misinformed.

Anyone who thinks that this is about missiles from hamas just hasnt any knowledge on the subject and is forming an opinion from western news reports.

I am sorry but you ae struggling here, are displaying your lack of knowledge with every posy and you would be better to stop, start reading unbiased reports and not 'mark rosenberg says palestine doesnt exist' as your evidence.

Scotland86 · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 12 Dec 2008 Posts: 249

I didnt use it as someones opinion. The fact is he is using "rules" of what makes a country a country and Palestine does not match up to these criteria. As i said its one of several sites.

I dont take all my info from news reports. And how am i showing a lack of knowledge? Just because i dont agree with the majority of readers does not mean i lack knowledge it means i aint willing to be drawn in with the sympathy vote for Palestinians. The fact is they attacked Israel they should be punished.

Scotland86 · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 12 Dec 2008 Posts: 249

This site shows it as it is, a state not a country.

http://www.infoplease.com/countries.html

Any qualms on this one?

Scotland86 · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 12 Dec 2008 Posts: 249

dont see it here either

http://www.listofcountriesoftheworld.com/

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

David Green was born in Poland He studied at the University of Warsaw, joined a Marxist group, and was arrested during the Russian Revolution of 1905. Later, he became a Zionist. He moved to Palestine (which was ruled by the Ottoman Turks). He then moved to European Turkey, where he studied at the University of Istanbul for a time. He was expelled by the Turks for his political activities, and moved to New York, where he met an American Jewish woman and got married. Then in 1918, after the Balfour Declaration, he joined the British army. In later years, he would support attacks on the British army.

At some point he changed his name to David Ben Gurion. He became leader of the Zionists, and in 1948 he became the first Leader of the state of Israel.

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
David Ben-Gurion, first Prime Minister of Israel.

“We must expel the Arabs and take their places.”
David Ben-Gurion, first Prime Minister of Israel

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion, first Prime Minister of Israel.

Scotland86 · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 12 Dec 2008 Posts: 249

Hold on i was going through looking for Palestine. Thats the trouble of trying to do 5 tasks at once. I will get the correct links when i finish my other tasks

Scotland86 · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 12 Dec 2008 Posts: 249

This is pointless one says country the next says not. I give up on the fact of it being a country or not it was a secondary question anyway. I myself dont believe it is i may be wrong.

Scotland86 · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 12 Dec 2008 Posts: 249

My question still stands David what would you be saying if Israel "lifted the siege" and Hamas/Palestinian militia then started killing Israelis from within Israel?

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

Under the Turkish Ottoman Empire, there was a province of Palestine. A British army officer, Lawrence of Arabia, made promises to the Arabs, while other British representatives made completely opposite promises to Zionists. After the war, with Turkey on the losing side, Britain was "mandated" to administer the province of Palestine by the League of Nations. Because of the contradictory promises that had been made, this became increasingly difficult for Britain to do. There was more than one faction amongst the Zionists, but the majority faction (led by David Ben Gurion, later prime minister of Israel) agreed to a smaller faction (led by Menachem Begin, who ALSO later became a prime minister of Israel) planting a bomb in the crowded King David Hotel in Jerusalem which resulted in 91 deaths and 46 serious injuries. As well as targeting the British, of course, the Zionists targeted the Palestinians. David Ben Gurion advocated using "terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services" - these are his own words - against the Palestinian population. He also said “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel.......we have taken their country".

THAT is the background to the present conflict. Not Hamas shooting a few ineffective rockets into Israeli.

Scotland86 · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 12 Dec 2008 Posts: 249

So what would you be saying if all the swift actions were made etc that you blabber on about then the Palestinians started killing Israelis going to school etc? what would you say then? that Israel is still in the wrong and should move back further give up more land? do it faster? the Paletinians just like the Iraqis will never be happy or grateful and will always find a reason to hate the people that dont believe what they want them to believe.

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

Dave Coull · Independentista Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2809

From: "Jewish Peace News " <jpn@jewishpeacenews.net>

On protests inside of Israel, with analysis and reports from Rela Mazali, Rebecca Vilkomerson, Gush Shalom and Tom Pessah

From Rela Mazali:

Israeli news "farteiched und farbessered"

To read the English internet version of Haaretz of January 4th, you wouldn't know that some TEN THOUSAND marchers had protested their government's policy and attack on Gaza the night before in Tel Aviv or that earlier that day, MANY TENS OF THOUSANDS (some estimates have quoted 70 to 100 thousand), Jews and Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel, marched their protest through the Arab town of Sakhnin in the Galilee. They're not part of the reality constructed by Haaretz's English website. On January 4th, one headline—topping an item picked up from Associated Press read: "Protesters across Europe urge Israel to end attacks on Gaza Strip" with no mention of domestic protests. Haaretz, mind you, is the newspaper often cited as a central example of Israel's relatively critical and truthful media.

Though the Hebrew website published items on both the above protests above, Haaretz's report on the Tel Aviv march was headlined: "Hundreds demonstrated throughout the country in protest …". The article actually says that, "thousands participated in a protest march … in Tel Aviv" and that "tens of thousands of demonstraters" protested in Sakhnin (my translation), but the dismissive "hundreds" of the headline might well convince you to skip such insignificant details. Today, one day later, as I'm writing this analysis, the Hebrew website of Haaretz no longer features even this headline; it can only be accessed via the archive and the item itself is only available for purchase.

A powerful "die-in" staged on Friday, January 3rd, by about 20 activists, at the entrance to an air force base situated in the posh northern Tel Aviv quarter known as "Tochnit Lamed" (see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpeC7P-2LfU), hasn't been reported on to date by Haaretz in English, though the English version of Ynet carried an item on it (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3649206,00.html). In Monday's print version in Hebrew Haaretz included a "box" briefly reporting on this action, which is absent from both the Hebrew and English websites.

This is just a quick and superficial survey of how reality is filtered, "farteiched und farbessered" (abridged and improved, as a Yiddish adapter is reputed to have claimed of his rendering of Shakespeare) by Israeli media, in translation to English.

From Rebecca Vilkomerson:

The arrest and aftermath of the 19 activists from ANARCHISTS AGAINST THE WALL who did a "die in" at Tel Aviv's air force base, was extraordinary. There is a video of the arrest (in hebrew) and it clearly shows them being ordered to move to the sidewalk, doing so, and then being arrested anyway (see video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpeC7P-2LfU). They were held for an un-precedented three days before being charged, and in the meantime activists' homes have been entered, computers have been taken, and even additional arrests have been made by the police. The Anarchists have been one of the most effective groups working against the Occupation, and my sense is that the state is taking this opportunity to both to try to deter others from civil disobedience as well as try to do damage to the group, under cover of the invasion and less outcry on invasions of civil liberties in a "democracy." It is also important to note that there are reports that numerous Palestinian Israelis havebeen arrested from their homes as well since the invasion began, but there has been no focus (at least in the English or Hebrew press) on these actions whatsoever.

***

Gush Shalom report on Saturday night's demonstration:

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/events/1231029668

At the same time as Ehud Barak was ordering the army to start the bloody ground offensive against Gaza, some ten thousand protesters from all over Israel marched in Tel-Aviv in a massive demonstration against the war. All four lanes of Ibn Gvirol St., one of the city's main throughfares, were packed full of demonstrators who marched the two kiolometres from the Rabin Square to the Cinemateque, chanting and waving banners all the way.

“One does not build an election campaign over the dead bodies of children!” shouted the protesters in Hebrew rhymes. “Orphans and widows are not election propaganda!”, “Olmert, Livni and Barak war is no game!”’ “All cabinet ministers are war criminals!!” Barak, Barak, don’t worry we shall meet you in The Hague!”, “Enough, enough speak with Hamas!”

The written posters were similar. Some of them paraphrased Barak’s election slogans: “Barak is not friendly, he is a murderer!” (The original Barak slogan says: “Barak is not friendly, he is a leader!”) Also: “No to the Election War, 2009!” and “The six-Knesset-seat war!” an allusion to the polls which showed that in the first days of the war Barak’s Labor Party has gained six prospective seats.

The demonstration took place after a fight with the police, which tried to prevent or at least limit it, arguing that they would not be able to stop right-wing rioters from attacking it. Among other things, the police demanded that the organizers undertake to prevent the hoisting of Palestinian flags. The organizers petitioned the High Court of Justice, which decided that the Palestinian flag is legal and ordered the police to protect the demonstration from rioters,

The demonstration was decided upon by Gush Shalom and 20 other peace organizations, including the Women’s Coalition for Peace, Anarchists Against the Wall, Hadash, the Alternative Information Center and New Profile. Meretz and Peace Now did not participate officially, but many of their members showed up. Some thousand Arab citizens from the north arrived in 20 buses straight from the big demonstration of the Arab public which had taken place in Sakhnin.

The organizers themselves were surprised by the large number of protesters. “A week after the start of Lebanon War II, we succeeded in mobilizing only 1000 demonstrators against it. The fact that today there came 10,000 proves that the opposition to the war is much stronger this time. If Barak goes on with his plans, public opinion may completely turn against the war in a few days.”

The giant Gush Shalom banner said in Hebrew, Arabic and English: “Stop Killing! Stop the Siege! Stop the occupation!” The slogan of the demonstration called for the end of the blockade and an immediate cease-fire.

On the day of the protest, the extreme Right mobilized their forces in order to break up the demonstration by force. The police made a great effort to prevent riots, and the one-mile march from Rabin Square to Cinematheque Square proceeded relatively quietly. However, when the protesters started to disperse, in accordance with the agreement with the police, a large crowd of rightists started to attack them. The police, which till then had been keeping the two camps apart, disappeared from the scene. The rioters then encircled the last of the protesters, harassing them, pushing them about and at a certain point started to besiege the Cinematheque building, where some of the last protesters had found refuge. They tried to break into the building, threatening to “finish off” the protesters, but at the last moment some police arrived and protected the entrance. The rioters stayed around for a long time.

***

From Tom Pessah, Israeli activist and JPN reader:

(I am writing in English for the benefit of our friends outside Israel, to encourage them to continue speaking out to get the world to respond to this. I assume most of my Israeli friends can follow this).

There is a huge number of protests going on around the country. This blog http://mystical-politics.blogspot...monstrations-against-bombing.html mentions some. One of the most impressive was outside a base of the airforce, to remind pilots that they are actually killing people, not just bombing targets. In this protest 21 people were arrested, some of whom have been in jail for several days.

A significant development is that parts of the zionist left, such as Meretz and Peace Now, have joined the calls for an immediate halt to the war- http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Sate...ame=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull. Several thousands protested last night in Tel Aviv - http://things.co.il/, and thousands more demonsrated in Sakhnin earlier that day, in what is seen as the biggest protest in the Arab sector for many years. http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=29543
Not enough to stop the land invasion, but public opinion is turning in our direction.

The counter-protestors yesterday told us we had no right to an opinon, since we don't live in Sderot. It brought me great satisfaction to tell them of the petition by Sderot civilians against the war (thanks Sarah Anne for posting it on Jewish Peace News -http://jewishpeacenews.blogspot.com/2009/01/some-voices-of-dissent.html).

(I resolved not to let anyone silence me, and the next time someone tries to take my place in the queue at a bank or at a store, I will definitely scream "fifth column!!!! go to Gaza!!! traitor!!!!". Also, those who weren't at the rally missed the counter-protestors' inimitable rendering of HaTikvah, the Israeli national anthem, as some kind of soccer song, to which some us responded quite naturally by screaming stuff about the referee's mother. I guess you should have been there)

Yesterday I spoke with M., a 20-year old student at the Hebrew university, who is planning a vigil this week in her campus. This is her first semester ever. In Jaffa, Palestinian activists are undergoing serious intimidation, including being woken up at night by the police for trumped up charges, and then released without being accused of anything. In spite of this they are continually protesting: last week they set up a mourning site for the civlians who died in Gaza, on Saturday many of them came to demonstrate in Tel Aviv, and on Tuesday another protest is planned in Jaffa
Here are some testimonies - http://www.alternativenews.org/ne...-citizens-of-israel-20090101.html
Maybe remember this the next time someone tells you how lucky Arabs are to be citizens of Israel.

The police initially said that it would ban Saturday's demonstration if participants were to wave Palestinian flags, and it took a decision by the High Court to allow the protest to happen http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3649253,00.html. This is, of course, the "flag of the enemy", and Palestinian citizens of Israel are expected to proudly wave the Israeli flag with the Star of David, as an expression of their national identity.

I am constantly impressed by people's creativity: a party scheduled for Saturday was not cancelled because of the war, but it turned instead into a protest event, with drag kings dressing up as soldiers and parodying the fighting. A group of Jewish and Palestinian poets brought out a collection of anti-war poems (in Hebrew - you can download it here - http://notes.co.il/mati/51225.asp), and organized a reading outside the house of Barak, the Defense Minister, to emphasize his responsibility for the massive killings.http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052047.html - and these are only a few instances that I am aware of, mainly from my area (Tel Aviv).

The media is barely covering it, but as a Tel Avivian friend told me, she was hardly aware of the protests against the war until 10000 people passed by her house chanting slogans like (my favorite) - Arabs and Jews refuse to be enemies. Since many Arabs bused into Tel Aviv to be present, this felt especially poignant.

Tom Segev wrote in his column this week that "On April 5, 1956, Israel bombed the marketplace in the center of Gaza City. Fifty civilians were killed in that attack, including women and children. Then foreign minister Moshe Sharett thought it was a "savage and stupid" operation. But David Ben-Gurion, the prime minister and defense minister, and Moshe Dayan, the Israel Defense Forces chief of staff, believed the Egyptian president, Gamal Abdel Nasser, sought to destroy Israel and therefore his regime must be toppled, via a defeat in a comprehensive war. Therefore, the ministers followed a policy designed to increase tension and escalation, to the brink of war". This was 52 years ago! http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052024.html
whereas this market in Gaza was attacked last week - http://www.facebook.com/people/To...eo.php?v=1037755058264&ref=nf

We can either continue to accept this logic, that killing hundreds of people will "teach them a lesson", or we can demand a complete change of policy - a real honest attempt to end the occupation in both Gaza and the West Bank, dismantling settlements instead of building new ones, allowing people access to health care, food, higher education, travel abroad and the right to choose their own government democratically just like everyone else. To all those who say "there is no choice" - why is killing 500 people, very few of whom were engaged in firing rockets, even considered a legitimate choice? where is this leading to? only to the death and wounding of more Palestinian and Israeli soldiers and civilians. Enough is enough. Get up, stand up.

................................................................
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Jewish Peace News editors:
Joel Beinin
Racheli Gai
Rela Mazali
Sarah Anne Minkin
Judith Norman
Lincoln Shlensky
Rebecca Vilkomerson
Alistair Welchman
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Jewish Peace News archive and blog: http://jewishpeacenews.blogspot.com
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Scotland86 · Gaining a Reputation Joined: 12 Dec 2008 Posts: 249

I have manners, but i also have my views and you can come up with all the "evidence" you wish you wont change my views and just because i dont agree with you doesnt mean im talking rubbish it simply means we support different sides.