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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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 Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:12 am Post subject: |
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All Israel's neighbours have recognised Israel's 1967 borders. None will attempt to attack.
From Israel's point of view, surely a smaller territory is easier to defend than the extended sprawl they currently occupy. However you look at it, there is no justification for Israel trying to secure its own safety at the expense of her neighbours. And Israel will never be secure as long as it keeps remote settlements (which must be incredibly difficult and expensive to defend) within Palestinian territory.
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Scotland86
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 249
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:29 am Post subject: |
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All Israel's neighbours have recognised Israel's 1967 borders. None will attempt to attack.
Are you denying that Israels Arab neighbours said they will wipe Israel off the face of the earth? Hamas included by the way.
And Israel will never be secure as long as it keeps remote settlements (which must be incredibly difficult and expensive to defend) within Palestinian territory.
Aint the whole of Israel in palestinian territory? |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Scotland86 wrote: | | how about we talk about what the Israelis have been saying |
In response, I pointed out that I had repeatedly drawn attention to what SOME Israelis are saying, and Scotland86 had repeatedly declined to talk about this. To quote a previous message from myself,
| Dave Coull wrote: | | I pointed out that I had repeatedly drawn attention to what some Israelis are saying |
Note that I specifically said SOME Israelis
| Quote: | | and Scotland86 had repeatedly declined to talk about this. |
And THAT is a fact. He has, in fact, repeatedly declined to talk about this, I make it at least five times now, and is still declining to do so, therefore, regarding his suggestion "how about we talk about what the Israelis have been saying",
| I wrote: | | Ah, I get it now. You don't really want to talk about what the Israelis have been saying. You only want to talk about what SOME Israelis, the ones that you agree with, have been saying |
| Scotland86 wrote: | | No Dave |
Whaddya mean, "No"????????!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't see how you can possibly deny that you have been avoiding discussing what SOME Israelis are saying! Despite suggesting "how about we talk about what the Israelis have been saying", you have now declined at least five opportunities to talk about what Tom Pessah and tens of thousands of other Israeli citizens have been saying!
| Scotland86 wrote: | | because if we talk about the Israelis you mentioned that too would be talking about SOME of them |
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Whaddya mean, "Because"?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Because" is a word that you use when you give a REASON. You have not given a reason. I have repeatedly drawn attention to what SOME Israelis, such as Tom Pessah for instance, are saying. Statement of fact, you have repeatedly declined opportunities to discuss this. Therefore (a word signifying a conclusion drawn from the statement immediately before) it seems to me that you only want to talk about what SOME Israelis, the ones that you agree with, have been saying. In the circumstances of your repeated avoidance of discussing what Tom Pessah and others in the Israeli anti-war movement have been saying, I don't see how you can possibly deny this.
We here on the Our Scotland forum can't consider the words of very single citizen of Israel. Of course we can only discuss one statement, from one Israeli, or one group of Israelis, at a time. But YOU have not quoted any statements at all, from any Israelis whatsoever. Whereas, I have. Now, personally, I would be quite prepared to discuss conflicting statements, from different Israelis, in the same message. However, that would probably be difficult for YOUR attention span, and you would probably accuse me of "blabbering on", as you have done previously.
Although you said "how about we talk about what the Israelis have been saying", so far as I can see, the only person on this forum who has actually refused to discuss a statement from some Israelis is yourself. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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I am denying that that is still their positions. They have all recognised Israel's 1967 borders and have publicly pledged to honour them. Do you deny that? If so, produce a source.
Hamas is not a sovereign government, but a Palestinian liberation movement. Their rhetoric is for their own people's consumption. If they can get a reasonable peace settlement of course they are going to recognise Israel as part of the deal. Don't you know how these things work?
The whole of Israel was once Palestinian territory but the UN mandated the creation of the State of Israel within that territory. The whole world recognises Israel's territory as mandated by the UN. No-one recognises the territory Israel grabbed after the 1967 war. As long as Israel maintains settlements in the occupied territories it will never be secure, but the settlements are a good excuse to harass and brutalise Palestinians, which provokes retaliation, which gives an excuse to kill a few hundred more. Eventually they hope to clear them out and enjoy security in their expanded lands.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Scotland86
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Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 249
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Holebender im not denying that Israels borders are recognised by there neighbouring countries but that doesnt change the fact that all but Jordan are just watching and waiting for the right time to strike at Israel to follow through there pledge to wipe them out.
Dave. You keep going on about this one Jewish peace newspaper journalist as "some" Israelis. What happens if i didnt want to talk about that "some Israelis" what if i wanted to talk about the "some Israelis" who back the attacks on Gaza and feel they are justified and required to secure there safety. |
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mairead
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4295
Location: Argyll, Alba
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with you Scotland 86. I firmly believe that Iran, and others, are just waiting the opportunity to move in and further increase the Muslim states.
Israel is a non Muslim country surrounded by fanatics who think if you are not Muslim then you should be dead. IMHO, There is a bigger picture here which no-one seems to be looking at.
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I fear not hell, nor English strife,
For Scotland, I will give my life |
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Scotland86
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 249
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Mairead im glad that you are one of few on here who is looking at it as i am. There is indeed a bigger picture. I am not denying that there is people suffering on both sides. But Israel has to think of there long term future and security. As i have said if they sat back and took a light handed approach i am willing to bet that Iran would be mobilising for an attack. |
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Scotland86
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Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 249
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| if not Iran im pretty sure Syria wouldnt mind a pop at the Israelis. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| mairead wrote: | | There is a bigger picture here which no-one seems to be looking at. |
Be fair, I have repeatedly pointed out some aspects of the bigger picture. Like, for instance, that the reason many fundamentalist Christians in the USA and elsewhere (including still-President George Dubbya Bush) are so enthusiastic in their support of Israel is because of their interpretation of what it says in the Book of Revelations about Israel as a Sign of the End.
| mairead wrote: | | I firmly believe that Iran, and others, are just waiting the opportunity to move in and further increase the Muslim states. |
Presumably you also believe that Iain Paisley and the Pope are plotting together to increase the Christian states? |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Scotland86 wrote: | | how about we talk about what the Israelis have been saying |
Personally, I am willing to discuss anything relevant to the present conflict that anybody here on this Our Scotland forum chooses to quote from any Israeli. Of course, in any grouping of human beings, you are likely to find different opinions. That is as true of "the Israelis" as it is of any other grouping of human beings. But Scotland86 made his "suggestion" AFTER several posts from myself in which I quoted things that some Israelis were saying, and AFTER Scotland86 had chosen NOT to talk about these things that some Israelis were saying. Therefore, Scotland86's "suggestion" was hypocritical. | Scotland86 wrote: | | Dave. You keep going on about this one Jewish peace newspaper journalist |
I only mentioned Tom Pessah as one example of what you have chosen to avoid talking about. If you go back to my first post on this, under the "Demonstration for Gaza" heading, you will find that it included reports on anti-war protests inside Israel from " Rela Mazali, Rebecca Vilkomerson, Gush Shalom and Tom Pessah ". So, as well as Tom Pessah, you ALSO chose to ignore, and not talk about, what Rebecca Vilkomerson, Gush Shalom, and Rela Mazali had to say. | Scotland86 wrote: | | what if i wanted to talk about the "some Israelis" who back the attacks on Gaza and feel they are justified and required to secure there safety. |
Well of course I KNOW that is what you want. But like I already asked you in relation to something else, "What's stopping you?". You haven't quoted a single word said by ANYBODY in Israel.
In any case, although that's what you really want, it's not what you SAID you wanted. What you CLAIMED to want is "how about we talk about what the Israelis have been saying". That claim has now conclusively been proved to be hypocrisy. You have repeatedly, six times now I think, refused to talk about things said by the ONLY real, live, present day Israelis whose words have been quoted, by name, here on this Our Scotland forum. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Have you people looked at a map lately? Iran? You do realise they are not exactly neighbours and Israel would have to swallow up Syria and Iraq before there could be any sort of border war with Iran.
The longest standing peace agreement in the region is between Israel and Egypt, but you don't seem to have noticed that one. I'm sure, as soon as they get the Golan back, Syria will honour its obligations. Why wouldn't they? Is it just because they's Muslims?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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mairead
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4295
Location: Argyll, Alba
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Dave Coull,
you can presume whatever you like about the Pope and Ian Paisley but they are not up for discussion. Your presumtion is a bit silly to say the least, but no more than I would expect from you.
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For Scotland, I will give my life |
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mairead
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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Location: Argyll, Alba
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Holebender. I take your point re distance, but then no-ne knows what long range weapons are at Iran's disposal and war is not always waged on the ground. Distance is no barrier these days as we have seen so recently with Iraq and Afganistan for example.
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I fear not hell, nor English strife,
For Scotland, I will give my life |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| mairead wrote: | | I firmly believe that Iran, and others, are just waiting the opportunity to move in and further increase the Muslim states. |
| I wrote: | | Presumably you also believe that Iain Paisley and the Pope are plotting together to increase the Christian states? |
| mairead wrote: | | Your presumtion is a bit silly to say the least |
Exactly.
They are both fanatics, but fanatics who can't agree.
And it's just as silly to think there is agreement amongst Muslims on further increasing the Muslim states as it would be to expect agreement between Paisley and the Pope.
There are Shia fundamentalists and there are Sunni fundamentalists, but they are both more likely to reach agreement with the Christians than with each other.
There are also plenty of Muslims, in Israel, in Palestine, in Syria, in Iran, etc etc etc, who agree with the Israeli anti-war movement, and peace-loving Jews in other countries, in wanting a Middle Eastern settlement which is based on justice and peaceful co-operation, and not on fundamentalist ideology of any kind.
What Israel is doing plays into the hands of fundamentalists of all kinds, Jewish, Muslim, and, most dangerous of all, Christian.
Last edited by Dave Coull on Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| mairead wrote: | | no-one knows what long range weapons are at Iran's disposal |
That's not true.
Nowadays, satellite photo imagery is so good, even stuff that is freely available on the web can take you down to things just two feet square. My wife's father, in San Francisco, used a publicly available map search facility, which maps every part of the world, to find our house. He sent the image to us. You can even tell that our neighbour had cut his grass, and I hadn't cut ours. I pointed out to my wife that the photo was taken last Summer. You can tell because there are leaves on the bushes, and because our next door neighbour has a different colour of car now.
And if stuff like that is publicly available, then you can bet the US military has stuff that gives a LOT more detail. And THEIR images were taken TODAY.
And of course, as well as having better stuff for VIEWING, they also have far more advanced stuff for LISTENING.
"No-one knows what long range weapons are at Iran's disposal?" Rubbish! Of course they do. The US military knows. The British intelligence services know.
They won't tell US. And anything they DO tell us is quite likely to be a lie. Remember those "Iraqi weapons of mass destruction" ? Remember how we were supposed to be under threat of attack at just forty five minutes notice? It was all LIES. But those lies were used to justify an attack on Iraq.
For that reason, when I hear things like "no-one knows what long range weapons are at Iran's disposal", I know (1) It's not true, and (2) some folk who KNOW it's not true might, nevertheless, have a vested interest in spreading the lie. |
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mairead
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4295
Location: Argyll, Alba
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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More presumption from you then. Pity your wife's father did not spot that Iraq had no long range WMD's or if he knew so much why did he not convey this amazing info to Bush and Blair and save thousands of lives.???
I'm sure Israel could use some help along these lines to spot the exact locations of the Paestine rockets, why don't you pass all this knowlege along to them. Duh..
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I fear not hell, nor English strife,
For Scotland, I will give my life |
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agentmancuso
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Joined: 06 Sep 2006
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Location: Gone to the forest
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| mairead wrote: | | Pity your wife's father did not spot that Iraq had no long range WMD's or if he knew so much why did he not convey this amazing info to Bush and Blair and save thousands of lives.??? |
Bush and Blair both knew that the long range WMDs were purely imaginary.
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| mairead wrote: | | Pity your wife's father did not spot that Iraq had no long range WMD's |
Like a lot of very elderly folk, he knew virtually nothing about computers, and he certainly didn't know how to access the web at that time. Since then, my wife has taught him how to use the web. But he found that publicly available satellite imagery site all by himself, and he was very proud of showing us his cleverness in doing so. Pretty much anybody can do that sort of thing, if they have the time and the inclination to search the web. YOU could do it, if you were prepared to spend the time and effort on doing so. Personally, I'm not as keen on searching the web as my wife is, or even her dad. Of course, the web is changing extremely fast, and there are things available NOW that weren't available when the Iraq war started. But some folk DID say, at that time, that what was already publicly known then discredited the whole idea of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. They were ignored, because it suited those in power for them to be ignored. Anyway, the point is, what is publicly available NOW. If absolutely anybody could go on line and find such detail now, then it stands to reason that the stuff which is NOT publicly available, the stuff that is only available to the military and government agencies, is bound to be FAR more detailed. So it just can't be true that "no-one knows what long range weapons are at Iran's disposal". The USA military and agencies know. The same is true for the UK. They know, and it is almost certainly the case that the truth is "the Iranians don't have anything much, really". But although the US and UK military and government agencies probably know that, they won't tell us that. They might, in fact, encourage exactly the opposite belief, just as they did with Iraq. | mairead wrote: | | I'm sure Israel could use some help along these lines to spot the exact locations of the Palestine rockets, why don't you pass all this knowlege along to them |
Why don't I do this?
The blindingly obvious answer is, because I'm not interested in helping ANY government, or ANY military.
But of course the Israeli military can and almost certainly do use technology which is more advanced than what is publicly available on the web. However, even if you can pinpoint something quite small, if the very destructive weaponry that you are firing into very crowded urban areas can't distinguish between "enemies" and "civilians", then it stands to reason you are going to cause what is euphemistically referred to as "collateral damage". |
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Scotland86
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Joined: 12 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| I am quite aware of where Iran is situated thank you. I also aware that they have Syria between them but considering that Syria want Israel destroyed i dont think it would be hard for Iran to get permission to pass through there land |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:00 am Post subject: |
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Enough! You keep repreating that Syria and other neighbouring states want to destroy Israel. Time to back this claim with a public statement from the government of Syria, or a high official of that government. Put up or shut up, produce a recent statement of Syria's intent to destroy Israel.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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