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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1021
Location: Clydesdale
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 Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Braveheart wrote: | | In the 2007 election, the SNP and the Greens got 33% of the vote between them. So 67% of those who voted did not vote for a referendum. |
Absolutely, it was a multi-issue election. 67% did not vote against a referendum, they merely voted for who they thought should form the next Scottish Government.
Do not mistake an election to a parliament for a vote on anything else, by that thinking the moment the SNP win a majority of seats in Scotland we can declare independence de facto, is that what you want?
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My arts and crafts site http://madestuff.co.uk |
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Braveheart
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 197
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| Alasdair wrote: | | Braveheart wrote: | | In the 2007 election, the SNP and the Greens got 33% of the vote between them. So 67% of those who voted did not vote for a referendum. |
Absolutely, it was a multi-issue election. 67% did not vote against a referendum, they merely voted for who they thought should form the next Scottish Government.
Do not mistake an election to a parliament for a vote on anything else, by that thinking the moment the SNP win a majority of seats in Scotland we can declare independence de facto, is that what you want? |
Alisdair,
If I really really really want a referendum I will vote for the party that will deliver it.
If I just sort of maybe sort of might, if you twist my arm, maybe, just want to see a referendum, but it's not really a top priority, and then I vote for a party that doesn't offer a referendum, or I don't vote at all, then it is reasonable to assume that I don't think a referendum is as important as most other things......
So the 17% or so who really want a referendum vote for the parties that offer a referendum. The vast majority don't.
Conclusion: the vast majority don't want a referendum, and the non-nationalist parties are right to deliver what the people who voted for them really want. It's called representative Democracy.
So the question again: can you respect the will of the majority of Scots, who don't express any real wish to have a referendum on independence? |
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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1021
Location: Clydesdale
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Braveheart wrote: | | Alasdair wrote: | | Braveheart wrote: | | In the 2007 election, the SNP and the Greens got 33% of the vote between them. So 67% of those who voted did not vote for a referendum. |
Absolutely, it was a multi-issue election. 67% did not vote against a referendum, they merely voted for who they thought should form the next Scottish Government.
Do not mistake an election to a parliament for a vote on anything else, by that thinking the moment the SNP win a majority of seats in Scotland we can declare independence de facto, is that what you want? |
Alisdair,
If I really really really want a referendum I will vote for the party that will deliver it.
If I just sort of maybe sort of might, if you twist my arm, maybe, just want to see a referendum, but it's not really a top priority, and then I vote for a party that doesn't offer a referendum, or I don't vote at all, then it is reasonable to assume that I don't think a referendum is as important as most other things......
So the 17% or so who really want a referendum vote for the parties that offer a referendum. The vast majority don't.
Conclusion: the vast majority don't want a referendum, and the non-nationalist parties are right to deliver what the people who voted for them really want. It's called representative Democracy.
So the question again: can you respect the will of the majority of Scots, who don't express any real wish to have a referendum on independence? |
Just because a referendum isn't a 'top priority' as you put it doesn't mean that it's not important to people. You may even find that there are MP's within the 'unionist' parties who would back a referendum if not independence.
I personally can accept that if the bill passes we get a referendum, if it doesn't we don't. Does that mean people like me will stop arguing for a referendum and ultimate independence, obviously not.
What I can't accept is people who claim that a multi-issue poll is the last word in any single issue.
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My blog - http://manaboutthehouse.wordpress.com
My arts and crafts site http://madestuff.co.uk |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Braveheart wrote: | | can you respect the will of the majority of Scots |
Yes.
If, and when, a referendum is held, for the first time ever in history, on whether Scotland should be independent or part of a united kingdom, I will respect the result of that, regardless of whether or not it is the result I would have preferred.
Party politics, no, I've got very little respect for that. |
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voiceofourown
Activist
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 145
Location: Ayrshire
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps we should change the format of the ballot papers in the next GE.
Once you have put your cross next to your preferred candidate, you should have to aver that you really, really, really want them to represent your constituency. 
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"All impotence corrupts and absolute impotence corrupts absolutely. Scotland is governed by a caste system, the upper stratum being composed of castrata."
Oliver Brown (1903-1976) |
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Braveheart
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 197
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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Alasdair
| Quote: | | Just because a referendum isn't a 'top priority' as you put it doesn't mean that it's not important to people. |
Sorry Alasdair, but if a referendum isn't a top priority to the extent that 83% of the population don't vote for parties that offer it, then it isn't important enough to enough people to justify the non-nationalist parties voting to spend time, effort, energy and money on having it.
In fact you could argue that the non-nationalist parties, having stood on a platform of "no referendum" and getting the overwhelming majority of the votes cast, would be acting undemocratically if they changed their positions and backed a referendum. |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5558
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Braveheart wrote: | | can you respect the will of the majority of Scots |
Yes.
If, and when, a referendum is held, for the first time ever in history, on whether Scotland should be independent or part of a united kingdom, I will respect the result of that, regardless of whether or not it is the result I would have preferred.
Party politics, no, I've got very little respect for that. |
How long will you respect it for? Twenty years? Less? What are the conditions of your respect? What questions must be asked to secure that? What will your respect mean in practical terms? Will you cease to be a Scottish nationalist? Will you never campaign for Scottish independence again? Will you hold back the flow of the insidious tartanising of our civic society? Will you adopt a British national identity? Will you start drinking tea more regularly? |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5558
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Braveheart wrote: | | In fact you could argue that the non-nationalist parties, having stood on a platform of "no referendum" and getting the overwhelming majority of the votes cast, would be acting undemocratically if they changed their positions and backed a referendum. |
Agreed - the relevant parties certainly need to clarify their positions if we are to be properly represented by them. |
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chicmac
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 459
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Braveheart wrote: | Alasdair
| Quote: | | Just because a referendum isn't a 'top priority' as you put it doesn't mean that it's not important to people. |
Sorry Alasdair, but if a referendum isn't a top priority to the extent that 83% of the population don't vote for parties that offer it, then it isn't important enough to enough people to justify the non-nationalist parties voting to spend time, effort, energy and money on having it.
In fact you could argue that the non-nationalist parties, having stood on a platform of "no referendum" and getting the overwhelming majority of the votes cast, would be acting undemocratically if they changed their positions and backed a referendum. |
Since when have the unionist parties ever stood on a platform of 'no referendum'?
You seem to forget that only 18 months ago Scottish Labour were 'solidly united' behind a call for a referendum. You seem to not notice that former first ministers like Labour's Henry McLeish are STILL calling for a referendum, as indeed are former LibDem leaders Paddy Ashdown and David Steel.
Even Maggie Thatcher conceded that Scottish sovereignty was up to the Scottish people themselves. And only very recently we have had a pretendy rethink by the FibDems.
Even the current situation is far from clear.
But it would be churlish not to concede that, yes, in a particularly disgusting little interlude in history, at least as far as from that which comports itself as party leadership is concerned, we are currently witnessing, for both Labour and LibDems, a classic case of the Bland leading the Bland even into the despond of disenfranchisement in a vain attempt to appear interesting. We have Gordon "I'll do whatever it takes to preserve the Union" Britoon leading the non-entity Iain Gray by the nose or by-passing him with the slime-stick Murphy and we have foetus-boy Nick Clegg seemingly doing his level best to rename his party the 'Illiberal Undemocratic Party' and likewise ignore rank and file concerns. But such a sordid little episode in the history of democracy, especially essentially confined to a desperate leadership who irrespective of an impending electoral disaster face the strong possibility of removal anyway, can have little in the way of any real life-expectation.
Indeed the current death throes of Labour and the LibDems are merely symptomatic of that meltdown of democracy into the stinking pile of corrupta it has so clearly become in Britain. One which cannot surely survive the next election where the undemocratic actions of this current mediocrity will meet with the judgement of the electorate.
However, irrespective of the appalling, morally bereft, position of the current leaderships, to suggest that "NO REFERENDUM" has ever been a 'platform position' for any of the unionist parties in the past is disingenuous. I have checked and not even the current manifestos of the LibDems or the Labour party state that they will not allow a referendum.
If either of their manifestos ever did, I am sure that would be a matter of some considerable interest to UN Human Rights rapporteurs.
_________________
"We have catcht hold of Scotland and would keep her fast." - Speaker, HoC, 1713
"No great mischief should they [Scottish soldiers] fall." - Wolfe, Quebec, 1759
Last edited by chicmac on Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:00 pm; edited 20 times in total |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Braveheart wrote: | | can you respect the will of the majority of Scots |
Yes. If, and when, a referendum is held, for the first time ever in history, on whether Scotland should be independent or part of a united kingdom, I will respect the result of that | Aventinian wrote: | | What are the conditions of your respect? |
A clear question, a properly conducted vote open to all on the electoral register in Scotland, and a clear answer. | Aventinian wrote: | | How long will you respect it for? |
If the vote is for independence, then I will respect that as long as it clearly remains the will of the majority of the people of Scotland. If the vote is for remaining part of the uk, I will respect that as long as it clearly remains the will of the majority of the people of Scotland. | Aventinian wrote: | | Will you cease to be a Scottish nationalist? |
I should think even a lot of members of the SNP would cease to be actively Scottish nationalist after independence! I think there will probably be some sort of re-alignment of parties, as the raison d'etre of the SNP will have been achieved, and members of the other parties will accept the outcome, just as the Tories, despite being against devolution, accepted a Scottish Parliament. As for me personally, as you know perfectly well, having been told so on numerous occasions, I don't describe myself as "a Scottish nationalist". That being so, this is a "Have you stopped beating your wife" question, which doesn't deserve an answer. | Aventinian wrote: | | Will you never campaign for Scottish independence again? |
If the result is as I expect, there would be no need!  In the unlikely event of a clear defeat for independence, I personally would certainly take a long break from such campaigning, and, in practice, at my age, that "long break" could mean "never again". But of course I can only speak for myself. | Aventinian wrote: | | Will you start drinking tea more regularly? |
I drink a lot of tea, but won't be increasing my intake, either way. |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5558
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| chicmac wrote: | | Since when have the unionist parties ever stood on a platform of 'no referendum'? |
Well, parties rarely stand against something - unless there's an obvious chance of it happening without their support or entry into government. There is a general stance against change unless otherwise stated.
| Quote: | | You seem to forget that only 18 months ago Scottish Labour were 'solidly united' behind a call for a referendum. You seem to not notice that former first ministers like Labour's Henry McLeish are STILL calling for a referendum, as indeed are former LibDem leaders Paddy Ashdown and David Steel. |
Parties are perfectly at liberty to discuss matters within themselves. Personally I think Lord Ashdown's logic is simply wrong, and this is one of these situations where the party leadership in Scotland should firmly stand against him.
| Quote: | | we are currently witnessing a classic case of the Bland leading the Bland for both Labour and LibDems. We have Gordon "I'll do whatever it takes to preserve the Union" Britoon leading the non-entity Iain Gray by the nose or by-passing him with the slime stick Murphy and we have foetus-boy Nick Clegg seemingly doing his level best to rename his party the 'Illiberal Undemocratic Party'. But such a sordid little episode in the history of democracy, especially confined to a desperate leadership facing removal, can have little in the way of any real life-expectation. |
I quite like Jim Murphy. Nick Clegg is, as you say, bland, but I think Tavish Scott is a step up from Nicol Stephen. As for illiberal, when? The Lib Dems have been far more committed to preserving civil liberties at Westminster than the SNP has ever been.
| Quote: | | If either of their manifestos ever did, I am sure that would be a matter of some considerable interest to UN Human Rights rapporteurs. |
Are you still peddling that evident bull-s**t? It's gone beyond ignorance and naivety to simply looking pathetic.
Last edited by Aventinian on Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5558
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | If the vote is for independence, then I will respect that as long as it clearly remains the will of the majority of the people of Scotland. If the vote is for remaining part of the uk, I will respect that as long as it clearly remains the will of the majority of the people of Scotland. |
How will you gauge that? If by referendum, on what minimum interval?
| Quote: | | As for me personally, as you know perfectly well, having been told so on numerous occasions, I don't describe myself as "a Scottish nationalist". That being so, this is a "Have you stopped beating your wife" question, which doesn't deserve an answer. |
It was not deliberate or intended as a slight, I suppose I simply meant a supporter of independence. |
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chicmac
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 459
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Aventinian"] | chicmac wrote: |
| Quote: | | If either of their manifestos ever did, I am sure that would be a matter of some considerable interest to UN Human Rights rapporteurs. |
Are you still peddling that evident bull-s**t? It's gone beyond ignorance and naivety to simply looking pathetic. |
The last time you rubbished the idea of UN supremacy in international law I gave several examples of agreements and treaties where this was manifestly stated and invited you to go argue the toss with the UN or on those forums where these matters are discussed.
I trust in the intervening period of silence from you, you have succeeded in having the Treaty of Rome, UN Charter etc, rewritten and will presently furnish us with URLs making this accomplishment clear.
Trembling in anticipation.
_________________
"We have catcht hold of Scotland and would keep her fast." - Speaker, HoC, 1713
"No great mischief should they [Scottish soldiers] fall." - Wolfe, Quebec, 1759 |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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In reply to Chicmac, | Aventinian wrote: | | There is a general stance against change unless otherwise stated. |
Spoken like an instinctive conservative. I wrote | Quote: | | As for me personally, as you know perfectly well, having been told so on numerous occasions, I don't describe myself as "a Scottish nationalist". |
| Aventinian wrote: | | It was not deliberate or intended as a slight |
Fair enough. | Quote: | | I suppose I simply meant a supporter of independence. |
Then it's better to say so. You, Aventinian, always deny you are a "British Nationalist". But you are a natural conservative, and you consider that the UK, while not necessarily perfectly democratic, is sufficiently so to satisfy you. Therefore you have "a general stance against change unless otherwise stated". I accept that's a general principle on your part, and not necessarily British Nationalism as such. I, on the other hand, approach things from a very different perspective. I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm in favour of change just for the sake of change, but I do have a general presumption that the existing state of affairs is always corrupt and could always be bettered; and I do have a general antipathy towards remote government. From my point of view, it's better to have the politicians (who we can assume to be corrupt) where we can keep an eye on them, if possible. In the case of Scotland, it IS possible to have government from Edinburgh, rather from London. Therefore, I am a supporter of independence, but have never described myself as a Scottish Nationalist. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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I wrote | Quote: | | If the vote is for independence, then I will respect that as long as it clearly remains the will of the majority of the people of Scotland. If the vote is for remaining part of the uk, I will respect that as long as it clearly remains the will of the majority of the people of Scotland. |
| Aventinian wrote: | | How will you gauge that? |
Well, if some of the opinion polling organisations turned out to have got the actual result of the referendum dead right, and if, a few years later, the same ones who had got THAT dead right started to indicate a BIG change in the public mood, then I might even start paying some attention to what they say! But there will also be various other ways of gauging a mood for change. For instance, in some countries, large numbers of people out on the streets can give one indication of a change in the public mood. If there was a clear popular demand for a new referendum - either, in an independent Scotland, to reverse independence; or, in a non-independent Scotland, to achieve this - then I would support that demand, on grounds of democracy. However, in the absence of any such indications, I will assume that the will of the majority of the people of Scotland remains as it was at the referendum. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | How long will you respect it for? Twenty years? Less? |
If we lost, I'd respect their decision till the polls showed a majority wanted independence then another referendum.
It won't end at a -ve referendum result.
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu bràth! |
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landg
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 617
Location: awaiting approval by a mod/admin
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | | Aventinian wrote: | | How long will you respect it for? Twenty years? Less? |
If we lost, I'd respect their decision till the polls showed a majority wanted independence then another referendum.
It won't end at a -ve referendum result. |
till the polls showed the majority showed independence.
ehm, the polls show we don't want it now.
could you please move along and come back when you are wanted. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| landg wrote: | till the polls showed the majority showed independence.
ehm, the polls show we don't want it now. |
Now, is the operative word.
Times change, people change, opinions change.
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu bràth! |
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landg
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 617
Location: awaiting approval by a mod/admin
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | | landg wrote: | till the polls showed the majority showed independence.
ehm, the polls show we don't want it now. |
Times change, people change, opinions change. |
feel free to come back when it happens. |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | | landg wrote: | till the polls showed the majority showed independence.
ehm, the polls show we don't want it now. |
Now, is the operative word.
Times change, people change, opinions change. |
Yes, and who is to say people of Scotland would want independence in 5, 10 or 15 years time? 
The problem with an independence vote is even if it was a resounding no, you would still get minority groups and parties like the SNP campaigning after it. So nothing really much changes.
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