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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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 Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:51 pm Post subject: Foreign Affairs |
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Even the most independent of us can sometimes get involved in foreign affairs, and there can be risks involved in this. (In my case, one foreign affair led to me becoming a father for the first time, and another one led to matrimony....) Anyway, today's Scotsman has an article titled "SNP sets out vision of seat at top table of world leaders"
http://www.scotsman.com/latestnews/SNP--sets-out-vision.5629221.jp
Mike Russell was in Brussels to launch a Scottish Government document entitled "Europe and Foreign Affairs". I'm not going to quote the whole Scotsman article here just the bits I think are worth commenting on. | Quote: | | Mike Russell said Scots could have a "dual citizenship" arrangement with the rest of the UK. |
There's nothing new about this. Despite the process of Ireland becoming independent being a much more acrimonious one, when Ireland did become independent, everybody in Ireland, no matter which part of the UK they came from originally, became an Irish citizen. Also, everybody in Ireland was automatically entitled to be treated as British, get a British passport, etc. In later years, folk BORN in independent Ireland were not automatically entitled to a British passport (although they were of course entitled to travel to the UK without a passport). The exception to this "no British passport" were folk born in independent Ireland who served in the British forces. When I joined the RAF in February 1959, I was surprised to find that about one in five of my fellow recruits at recruit training camp were from the Republic of Ireland. They would all have been entitled to a British passport. Also, ALL Irish citizens living in the UK, more than half a million people, have always been, and still are, entitled to vote in UK elections.) | Quote: | | In the document – entitled Europe and Foreign Affairs – Mr Russell also claims that an independent Scotland could share embassies and other facilities with the UK. |
Makes sense. We paid for those buildings, why shouldn't we make use of them? There's no point in building, or buying, grandiose new constructions just as prestige projects. | Quote: | | The report says Scotland would have a stronger place in the European Union with its own commissioner and more MEPs |
Well of course it would. IF we want to remain in the EU. A matter to be decided by a referendum of the people of Scotland, AFTER independence. | Quote: | | ignoring concerns that Scotland would have to renegotiate entry into the EU |
Another way of looking at it is that the EU is going to have to negotiate to try to keep this very valuable member country.
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5558
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Makes sense. We paid for those buildings, why shouldn't we make use of them? There's no point in building, or buying, grandiose new constructions just as prestige projects. |
That is indeed sensible. Essentially it's just another extension of the 'new union' ideas (indeed, wasn't it Mike Russell who came up with that phrase?). Whilst it doesn't much affect this particular issue, essentially the difference between federalism and independence in this context is that Nationalists want to equate 5 million people with 50 million, rather than have these joint bodies accountable to a democratic electorate.
| Quote: | | The report says Scotland would have a stronger place in the European Union with its own commissioner and more MEPs |
Scotland would not get its 'own commissioner'. For one, the system of choosing Commissioners will be reformed and rotational in the future, but more importantly the idea of a nation having a Commissioner is to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the Commission. Commissioners are entirely independent of their member-state and work for the good of Europe, not their nations. I wonder quite how the SNP can advocate being involved in such an organisation.
| Quote: | | Another way of looking at it is that the EU is going to have to negotiate to try to keep this very valuable member country. |
Yes, but that's a rather silly way of looking at it, considering Scotland needs the EU far more than the EU needs Scotland. Even in the eyes of most nationalists, a Scotland outside of the EU would be unthinkable - and indeed it is a matter upon which the SNP have nailed their colours very firmly to the mast on. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:58 am Post subject: |
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Regardless of the internal politics of the SNP it is a fundamentally democratic organisation. As such it will follow the electorate's lead on the EU rather than imposing its own position on the electorate. In other words, Scotland's membership of the EU will be a matter for Scotland's voters to decide, not for any political party to dictate.
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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1021
Location: Clydesdale
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Regardless of the internal politics of the SNP it is a fundamentally democratic organisation. As such it will follow the electorate's lead on the EU rather than imposing its own position on the electorate. In other words, Scotland's membership of the EU will be a matter for Scotland's voters to decide, not for any political party to dictate. |
You presume the SNP would be in power in an ndependent Scotland. It could easily be the fascist Labour or Tory parties.
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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That is a fair point, but I was actually replying to Aventinian's statement that the SNP is avowedly pro-EU. It is true that a Labour or Tory government would probably be inclined to impose their preference on the voters (probably using their "mandate" as justification) but the SNP has a proven track record of wanting to consult the voters on major constitutional issues.
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | In other words, Scotland's membership of the EU will be a matter for Scotland's voters to decide, not for any political party to dictate. |
That's what you think. Salmond has already been away enquiring about the possiblity of a "Scottish Euro". Have you ever heard the likes? What's Scottish about a Euro? 
That asides, I sense an assumption that an independent Scotland would automatically be secured as an EU member. Taking things a bit for granted there, I'd say. |
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landg
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 617
Location: awaiting approval by a mod/admin
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| i know he's round but alex sure likes to have some cake, eat it and take some home as well. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| landg wrote: | | i know he's round but alex sure likes to have some cake, eat it and take some home as well. |
I applaud you for the genius of your argument.
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | In other words, Scotland's membership of the EU will be a matter for Scotland's voters to decide, not for any political party to dictate. |
That's what you think. Salmond has already been away enquiring about the possiblity of a "Scottish Euro". Have you ever heard the likes? What's Scottish about a Euro?
That asides, I sense an assumption that an independent Scotland would automatically be secured as an EU member. Taking things a bit for granted there, I'd say. |
Scottish banks produce their own notes, why not the Euro instead.
Only problem, at the moment I don't think Europe would wish to touch any UK situated financial institution with a very long barge pole for many years to come.
France screwed up a bit, but the UK (Brown's financial acumen at work) mirrored the US and that is not a good thing. A miserable budget deficit for years to come.
However, Europeans like Scotland and would welcome Scotland with open arms (after all they've let every other 'country' in), also you're promoting Thatcher's make them scared theme and it's accepted as nonsense by reasonable minded people and isn't even slightly credible).
As much fun as this is, look at the bad jokes in Gen Ban to really bring yourself down.
Alba gu bràth.
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Since Scottish banknotes technically aren't worth the paper they're printed on in terms of being legal tender, I'd say it's quite a big deal. That asides, Salmond's enquires about the possiblity of Scottish Euro leaves his "Independence" propaganda wanting: out of the clutches of westminster, straight into the arms of Brussels, is what it says to me, and with "independence" lost in translation.
But anyway, the EU isn't about Scotland. It's about the EU and the conditions under which countries may apply for membership of. Why should Scotland retain an automatic right to EU membership on its own when it wasn't a part of it on its own merits in the first place? |
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babykitten
Activist
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 150
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | Since Scottish banknotes technically aren't worth the paper they're printed on in terms of being legal tender, I'd say it's quite a big deal. That asides, Salmond's enquires about the possiblity of Scottish Euro leaves his "Independence" propaganda wanting: out of the clutches of westminster, straight into the arms of Brussels, is what it says to me, and with "independence" lost in translation.
But anyway, the EU isn't about Scotland. It's about the EU and the conditions under which countries may apply for membership of. Why should Scotland retain an automatic right to EU membership on its own when it wasn't a part of it on its own merits in the first place? |
Fidget, are you actually aware that NO bank notes are actually "legal tender" in Scotland, not even Bank of England notes? Actually, Bank of England £1 notes ARE legal tender in Scotland, but since they are not produced any more, NO notes are legal tender in Scotland.
I rather think you have no idea what "legal tender" actually means. Legal tender is something that HAS to be accepted to settle a debt. No bank notes produced anywhere in the UK currently have that status in Scotland. Therefore, Scottish notes are no more 'useless' than English notes in Scotland.
Your argument about why should Scotland retain an automatic right to EU membership when it wasn't a part of it on its own merits in the first place. This argument has been dealt with in other threads where the precedent of Greenland having been forced to APPLY to leave was given.
However, do you realise that by your very own argument, the rump UK would also 'not qualify' due to it not being "a part of it on its own merits in the first place"?
Your comments smack of typical London-centric attitudes where Scotland is simply an appendage of London. Scotland is currently and was at the time of EU membership (or EEC or whatever it was at the time) a PART of the state of the UK. England, Wales and Northern Ireland was and is also a PART of the state of the UK. Membership of the EU is NOT based on London, or England, or England/Wales/Northern Ireland. It is based on the UK as a whole, including all those countries within the UK.
When Scotland leaves the UK, the UK will be no more. I concede that the rump UK will likely be regarded as the "successor state", in the same way that Russia was regarded as the successor state of the Soviet Union. However, this will not change the fact that both an independent Scotland and the rump UK will have to renegotiate the terms of their EU membership on Scottish Independence.
I don't for one second think that either will have to reapply to become members. This is just totally against what the EU is all about, which is enlargement creating a trading/political bloc. |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:44 am Post subject: |
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Can you just stop for a minute? Stop and ponder at which point the "UK" came into being that is. The UK came into being when Ireland joined and transformed it from Great Britain into the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland, but here's you with some mad notion that without Scotland, the UK would be no more.
As the saying goes, "don't talk romantic". |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Hold on... if the UK came into being when Ireland joined, that must surely mean it ceased to exist when Ireland left.
In actual fact, the United Kingdom came into being when the two kingdoms of Scotland and England became a single, united, kingdom so please stop making up history as you go along.
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babykitten
Activist
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 150
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | Can you just stop for a minute? Stop and ponder at which point the "UK" came into being that is. The UK came into being when Ireland joined and transformed it from Great Britain into the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland, but here's you with some mad notion that without Scotland, the UK would be no more.
As the saying goes, "don't talk romantic". |
Utter rubbish. I have not said that the UK would be no more if Scotland left. I said that the current UK would no longer exist. i.e. it would be replaced by two states: Scotland and the remaining UK. The remaining UK would probably still be called the "UK", and it would probably be regarded as the "successor state", but that is not guaranteed.
Which of the Czech Republic and Slovakia was regarded as the successor state to Czechoslovakia? I would hazard a guess that neither became THE successor state. They probably both were seen as successor states.
It is not guaranteed that the remaining UK would be the sole successor state in terms of treaties and their obligations.
Edit: here's a quick example for you. I would guess that India and others may well take the opportunity to argue that the remaining UK should no longer have a permanent seat on the UN security council if Scotland leaves the UK. There is really no justification for the UK and France to continue to have this post-war privilege any more. Other much larger countries may take the opportunity to renegotiate treaties and insist on changes to international structures on the dissolution of the UK. Therefore, the remaining UK may well not, if even only de facto, become THE successor state to the current UK. |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| babykitten wrote: |
Utter rubbish. I have not said that the UK would be no more if Scotland left. |
| babykitten wrote: |
When Scotland leaves the UK, the UK will be no more. |
I rest my case. |
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babykitten
Activist
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 150
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | | babykitten wrote: |
Utter rubbish. I have not said that the UK would be no more if Scotland left. |
| babykitten wrote: |
When Scotland leaves the UK, the UK will be no more. |
I rest my case. |
You are taking things out of context again.
The second statement, taken in its context meant "When Scotland leaves the UK, the [current state called] the UK will be no more.". This is NOT the same as saying "there will not be a state called the UK.".
I am saying that the UK as it is today will no longer exist and be replaced by two states, one called "Scotland" and one called "the UK", which will not be the same state as "the UK" that existed before.
This is not difficult to understand.
I'm glad you've rested your case, because we all might get some relief from your puerile trolling.
Stop quoting things out of context to make childish points. Stop quoting things in a way that makes it look like I am responding to somebody else. Stop avoiding the actual points being debated by constructing false statements out of selected quotes assembled together out of context. |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | [b]Hold on... if the UK came into being when Ireland joined, that must surely mean it ceased to exist when Ireland left
In actual fact, the United Kingdom came into being when the two kingdoms of Scotland and England became a single, united, kingdom so please stop making up history as you go along. |
Ireland hasn't quite left though.. hence your passport says "United Kingdom of Great Britain [that'll be the Scotland/England part] and Northern Ireland.
It's important to note here that Great Britain is a Kingdom, Northern Ireland is the other, and together they are what make up the United Kingdom.
The UK would be no more only if N.I went back to the Republic, because then they'd only be a kingdom left - not a United Kingdom, but simply a Kingdom, called Great Britain.. just as it was before Ireland joined.
I think you need to consult your Act of the Union which clearly states that the kingdoms of Scotland and England shall join to form "a" Kingdom - called Great Britain, not called the United Kingdom. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | | Great Britain is a Kingdom, Northern Ireland is the other, and together they are what make up the United Kingdom. |
For my history dissertation at university, I researched Scottish newspapers of the late 18th Century, both the "news" stories and the readers' letters. Now remember, this was at a time when Scotland and England were united, but before the Union with Ireland in 1801. In my research, I came across several references to things like the need to strengthen "the defence of these united kingdoms" - PLURAL. Apparently, even committed Unionists, in the late 18th Century, thought of Scotland and England as two distinct kingdoms, two UNITED kingdoms certaintly, but two kingdoms nevertheless. The peak of Unionism wasn't really reached until the 19th Century, during Victoria's reign, when you got folk naming things like the North British Hotel. That Victorian peak of Unionism passed long, long ago. I believe the North British Hotel changed its name to the Caledonian. As for Northern Ireland being "the other kingdom", complete codswallop. Even if we count Northern Ireland as being "Ulster", it was never at any time anything more than a Province, and a Province is what it remains to this day. |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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You may research as many newspapers as you like. But the fact is that Scotland and England united to form a single kingdom... called Great Britain. Not called the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom was born when the Kingdom of Ireland united with the Kingdom of Great Britain.
However much that displeases you, it's there in black and white. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | | Since Scottish banknotes technically aren't worth the paper they're printed on in terms of being legal tender |
Oh well, how about giving me all your Scottish bank notes and I'll give you the same weight in paper in return... no. Thought not.
Scottish banknotes are legal tender... think before you speak.
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