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Cruachan
Helping with the Count
Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 296
Location: The English Midlands
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 Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: The One Show and independence |
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| Fidget wrote: | | Zed wrote: |
No, what I mean is that I find it astonishing that the media outlets in England are not discussing the possible break up of the UK.
Whether you agree or disagree with an independent Scotland, the UK must accept and realise this is a distinct possibility.
There have been many discussions on this issue north of the border especially since the SNP came to power.
But in England and the rest of the UK, it's left to programmes like the One Show !
I remember there was a Newsnight discussion on independence, but quite amazingly it was not shown in all parts of the UK.
Is it arrogance or not facing up to reality ? |
The SNP love a good wind-up with their breaking up the UK tosh. If Scotland becomes independent then it will do so as a secession and the rump UK will continue without it just as when the R.O.I seceded. That'll be why nobody is talking about it south of the border. So, if anything, it's more arrogant for north of the border to think that scotland holds the sway on whether the UK breaks up or not. What a laugh!  |
I agree that (other than the Campaign for an English Parliament and related blogs) there is very little discussion in England on the coming break up of "Great Britain". And it will be a huge shock when it does happen. The London based media will have some questions to answer as to how they missed it coming!
But of course it is not that they are unaware, it is that the Unionist controlled media are doing all they can to rubbish the idea of Independence and to pretend/hope that the issue will just go away.
Perhaps, for a while, the rUK of England, Wales and Northern Ireland would continue. But the idea that after Scottish independence nothing would change to the politics and constitutional arrangements of those three countries is simply not tenable.
Everything would change.
http://loosechange-cruachan.blogspot.com/
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IT'S TIME.
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: The One Show and independence |
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| Cruachan wrote: | | it is that the Unionist controlled media are doing all they can to rubbish the idea of Independence and to pretend/hope that the issue will just go away. |
Where are you getting this idea that the "unionist controlled" media are out to rubbish Scottish independence? The population of England are so scunnered hearing the wingeing about independence that given a free vote on it would probably be more in favour of it than a free vote north of the border! |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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Whether or not the leftovers of the UK choose to continue using the name after Scotland's independence, only some sort of blind fool would argue that the UK we know today would just shrug off the events surrounding the secession and carry on without noticing anything. I realise your intention is to try to convince us all of the total insignificance of Scotland but all you are doing is making me wonder why you bother posting on a site like this.
Your need to massage your ego my belittling others is rather sad.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| au contraire my friend. Tis yourself and alike who need to jolt themselves out of the fairytale that consumes you. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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I am not the one being consumed here.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | Whether or not the leftovers of the UK choose to continue using the name after Scotland's independence, only some sort of blind fool would argue that the UK we know today would just shrug off the events surrounding the secession and carry on without noticing anything. I realise your intention is to try to convince us all of the total insignificance of Scotland but all you are doing is making me wonder why you bother posting on a site like this.
Your need to massage your ego my belittling others is rather sad. |
| Holebender wrote: | | I am not the one being consumed here. |
of course you're not. |
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William_Cleland
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 1180
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: The One Show and independence |
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| Fidget wrote: | | The SNP love a good wind-up with their breaking up the UK tosh. If Scotland becomes independent then it will do so as a secession and the rump UK will continue without it just as when the R.O.I seceded. That'll be why nobody is talking about it south of the border. So, if anything, it's more arrogant for north of the border to think that scotland holds the sway on whether the UK breaks up or not. What a laugh! |
Disagree about there being a parallel with 1921 if it ever were to happen. The emergence of Northern Ireland was what made it possible to carry on much as before (the Union of 1801 was still applicable at least in that context) and to keep the diagonal red bits in the Union Flag. Also perhaps worth noting that the RoI came later in 1948 and that the Irish Free State that initially emerged was at least on paper a Dominion of the British Empire along with Canada, South Africa, Newfoundland, Australia and New Zealand.
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No more boom and bust - Gordon Brown |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Clearly, things would be different, but the point I'm making is that the UK will continue to exist. It will not be dissolved as salmond and his lap dogs would like us to believe. |
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William_Cleland
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 1180
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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The United Kingdom of Great Britain bit of the name refers to the Treaty of Union between the Kingdoms of Scotland and England in 1707. The words "and Ireland" came later in 1801. Remove Scotland from the equation and there would need to be a significant name change because Britain and British would no longer be applicable and the blue bits would have to come out of the flag. In 1921 all that had to be done to carry on business as usual was to insert the word "Northern".
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No more boom and bust - Gordon Brown |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| No, the "Great Britain" bit refers to the Union. That was the act that united the Kingdom of Scotland, and the Kindom of England, into ONE kingdom - called "Great Britain", not the United Kingdom. As unsavoury as that might be to your palette, that's how it is. |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | The too stupid argument again... |
You seem to be incapable of distinguishing between someone making an argument and someone rebutting an argument. I am not arguing that Scots are too stupid, I am asking if someone else is saying it because that is how his post reads to me. |
No I am very capable in understand the different contexts in which 'too stupid' in being used in reference to Scotland.
The comment you are referring to is a straight forward question on how would an independent Scotland would reinburse it's share of the bank bail out to the other countries in the UK.
You ignored this and went straight to the 'too stupid' line of defence.
You commented on this or rather Scottish people being crap at business not Landg as you are suggesting here. |
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William_Cleland
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 1180
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | | No, the "Great Britain" bit refers to the Union. That was the act that united the Kingdom of Scotland, and the Kindom of England, into ONE kingdom - called "Great Britain", not the United Kingdom. As unsavoury as that might be to your palette, that's how it is. |
Where the last comment is concerned you should maybe check out my avatar. Where the first bit is concerned you definitely need to check out the text of the Treaty of Union:-
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Act_of_Union_1707
Article 1 (name of the new kingdom)
That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England, shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, and forever after, be United into One Kingdom by the Name of GREAT BRITAIN: And that the Ensigns Armorial of the said United Kingdom be such as Her Majesty shall think fit, and used in all Flags, Banners, Standards and Ensigns both at Sea and Land.
Article 2 (succession to the throne)
That the Succession to the Monarchy of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and of the Dominions thereunto belonging after Her Most Sacred Majesty, and in default of Issue of Her Majesty be, remain and continue to the Most Excellent Princess Sophia Electoress and Dutchess Dowager of Hanover, and the Heirs of Her body, being Protestants, upon whom the Crown of England is settled by an Act of Parliament made in England in the twelth year of the Reign of His late Majesty King William the Third entituled An Act for the further Limitation of the Crown and better securing the Rights and Liberties of the Subject;
And that all Papists and persons marrying Papists, shall be excluded from and forever incapable to inherit possess or enjoy the Imperial Crown of Great Britain, and the Dominions thereunto belonging or any part thereof; And in every such case the Crown and Government shall from time to time descend to, and be enjoyed by such person being a Protestant as should have inherited and enjoyed the same, in case such Papists or person marrying a Papist was naturally dead, according to the provision for the Descent of the Crown of England, made by another Act of Parliament in England in the first year of the Reign of their late Majesties King William and Queen Mary entituled an Act declaring the Rights and Liberties of the Subject, and settling the Succession of the Crown.
Article 3 (united parliament)
That the United Kingdom of Great Britain be Represented by one and the same Parliament, to be stiled the Parliament of Great Britain.
Article 4 (equal privileges of subjects)
That the Subjects of the United Kingdom of Great Britain shall from and after the Union have full Freedom and Intercourse of Trade and Navigation to and from any port or place within the said United Kingdom and the Dominions and Plantations thereunto belonging. And that there be a Communication of all other Rights, Privileges and Advantages which do or may belong to the Subjects of either Kingdom except where it is otherwayes expressly agreed in these Articles
....
Article 24 (the Great Seal, lesser seals and the Scottish crown jewels)
That from and after the Union, there be One Great Seal for the United Kingdom of Great Britain, which shall be different from the Great Seal now used in either Kingdom; And that the Quartering the Arms and the Rank and Precedency of the Lyon King of Arms of the Kingdom of Scotland as may best suit the Union be left to Her Majesty: And that in the mean time the Great Seal of England be used as the Great Seal of the United Kingdom, and that the Great Seal of the United Kingdom be used for Sealing Writs to Elect and Summon the Parliament of Great Britain and for sealing all Treaties with Forreign Princes and States, and all publick Acts Instruments and Orders of State which Concern the whole United Kingdom, and in all other matters relating to England, as the Great Seal of England is now used, and that a Seal in Scotland after the Union be alwayes kept and made use of in all things relating to private Rights or Grants, which have usually passed the Great Seal of Scotland, and which only concern Offices, Grants, Commissions, and private Rights within the Kingdom, And that until such Seal shall be appointed by Her Majesty the present Great Seal of Scotland shall be used for such purposes;
And that the Privy Seal, Signet, Casset, Signet of the Justiciary Court, Quarter Seal, and Seals of Courts now used in Scotland be Continued, but that the said Seals be altered and adapted to the state of the Union as Her Majesty shall think fit; And the said Seals, and all of them, and the Keepers of them, shall be subject to Regulations as the Parliament of Great Britain shall hereafter make:
And that the Crown, Scepter and Sword of State, the Records of Parliament, and all other Records, Rolls and Registers whatsoever, both publick and private generall and particular, and Warrands thereof Continue to be keeped as they are within that part of the United Kingdom now called Scotland, and that they shall so remain in all time coming, notwithstanding of the Union.
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No more boom and bust - Gordon Brown
Last edited by William_Cleland on Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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As I've mentioned already, without Scotland there is no second kingdom to unite.
Therefore it's the Kingdom of England and the Principalities (KEP).
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brāth! |
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William_Cleland
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 1180
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Wales is technically part of the Kingdom of England so the Kingdom of England and Province of Northern Ireland would maybe be more appropriate than Kingdom of England and the Principalities but you are right that Welsh sensibilities would probably have to be accommodated. If Scotland ever left there would be a major identity crisis for the rump state whether Fidget likes it or not. What collective noun would be used if British was off limits after the demise of the UK of GB? Think it's a long shot that it will ever actually happen but wouldn't completely discount it after a decade or so of Tory rule and a major energy crisis about 2015 when a large number of nuclear and coal plants are scheduled to close down.
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No more boom and bust - Gordon Brown |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | | No, the "Great Britain" bit refers to the Union. That was the act that united the Kingdom of Scotland, and the Kindom of England, into ONE kingdom - called "Great Britain", not the United Kingdom. As unsavoury as that might be to your palette, that's how it is. |
I suggest you read articles one and two of the Act of Union. The term "United Kingdom of Great Britain" is right there in black and white. You may try to wish it otherwise, but the United Kingdom was formed when the two kingdoms of England and Scotland merged. Remove one of the only two kingdoms which make up the UK and what is left? One kingdom and a couple of other bits. That is no longer a united kingdom.
However, I acknowledge that sovereign states can call themselves pretty much whatever they like and I'm fairly sure the rump of the UK will want to continue with the name for a bit of continuity. Good luck to them.
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | The too stupid argument again... |
You seem to be incapable of distinguishing between someone making an argument and someone rebutting an argument. I am not arguing that Scots are too stupid, I am asking if someone else is saying it because that is how his post reads to me. |
No I am very capable in understand the different contexts in which 'too stupid' in being used in reference to Scotland.
The comment you are referring to is a straight forward question on how would an independent Scotland would reinburse it's share of the bank bail out to the other countries in the UK.
You ignored this and went straight to the 'too stupid' line of defence.
You commented on this or rather Scottish people being crap at business not Landg as you are suggesting here. |
Not at all. I asked landg if he thought the Scots were innately crap at business and he responded with the stuff about the banks. As his response didn't really match my question I asked him if it was some sort of answer to my question. And I did not ignore the question either, I supplied an answer, so the ignoring of questions isn't coming from this side of the conversation.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Cruachan
Helping with the Count
Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 296
Location: The English Midlands
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: The One Show and independence |
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| Fidget wrote: | | Cruachan wrote: | | it is that the Unionist controlled media are doing all they can to rubbish the idea of Independence and to pretend/hope that the issue will just go away. |
Where are you getting this idea that the "unionist controlled" media are out to rubbish Scottish independence? The population of England are so scunnered hearing the wingeing about independence that given a free vote on it would probably be more in favour of it than a free vote north of the border! |
You may be surprised that I agree with you on this. 
The majority of the electorate of England would, if given any kind of say in the matter, would probably vote in favour of getting rid of those "whingeing"Scots (or voting for an independent England if the matter was ever put in that way).
However, it is the London controlled media and all those with a vested interest in the continuation of the British State, who are wholly focussed on maintaining the Union.
It is the people of England (and Wales) as well as the people of Scotland that are poorly served by the Unionist media.
http://loosechange-cruachan.blogspot.com/
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IT'S TIME.
http://loosechange-cruachan.blogspot.com/ |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: The One Show and independence |
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| Cruachan wrote: | | The majority of the electorate of England would, if given any kind of say in the matter, would probably vote in favour of getting rid of those "whingeing"Scots (or voting for an independent England if the matter was ever put in that way). |
I don't know... people don't like losing land territory.
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brāth! |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: The One Show and independence |
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| Cruachan wrote: | | Fidget wrote: | | Cruachan wrote: | | it is that the Unionist controlled media are doing all they can to rubbish the idea of Independence and to pretend/hope that the issue will just go away. |
Where are you getting this idea that the "unionist controlled" media are out to rubbish Scottish independence? The population of England are so scunnered hearing the wingeing about independence that given a free vote on it would probably be more in favour of it than a free vote north of the border! |
You may be surprised that I agree with you on this.
The majority of the electorate of England would, if given any kind of say in the matter, would probably vote in favour of getting rid of those "whingeing"Scots (or voting for an independent England if the matter was ever put in that way).
However, it is the London controlled media and all those with a vested interest in the continuation of the British State, who are wholly focussed on maintaining the Union.
It is the people of England (and Wales) as well as the people of Scotland that are poorly served by the Unionist media.
http://loosechange-cruachan.blogspot.com/ |
I think you're wrong with your "Unionist" media concept. If anything the media likes to inflame - sells papers, you see. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | | Clearly, things would be different, but the point I'm making is that the UK will continue to exist. It will not be dissolved as salmond and his lap dogs would like us to believe. |
Clearly you gave up on the UK thing but refering to Alec Salmond's fellow politicians as lap dogs is frankly prejudiced tosh my friend. Every one of the SNP politicians is in the political arena because they believe in a cause.
None of the Labour politicians seem to have any ideals left (with the exception of that fellow who stood up in parliament asking for trade union rights to be restored and was ignored by the leader of a party started by trade unionist ideals, I think his name is McKintosh, I like him).
You can call them names but the Scottish electorate know much better than that and have less and less faith in the Brit Labour party. The Tories have ideals that can all be summed up in one word : money.
Incidentally, you don't honestly think Alec Salmond wanted K McKaskill to free Magrahi... hardly a lap dog or sicophant or lackie or... whatever
You are desperately reaching dear Fidget, desperately.
Fidget my boy, drop your six gun and join the movement for independence.
You might just get the left wing republic you wish for.
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brāth! |
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