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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5557
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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 Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Tories terrorise the meek and the lame. |
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| Stevie wrote: | | Privatisation, free enterprise, free market economy, free trade... |
Hear, hear.
| Quote: | When will that old boot finally drink herself to death anyway
£3, 000, 000 !!! For that kind of money you can buy every man, woman and child in Scotland a shovel and we'll dig a hole so deep, we'll deliver her to Satan personally. |
What was that you seemed to be suggesting about socialists being somehow more humane?
Can't expect anything less from the politics of failure.
| Holebender wrote: | My wife suffered a brain haemorrhage which damaged her short term memory and rendered her blind. She receives incapacity benefit. Is she a criminal? Is she ripping you off?
Or are you maybe just an unthinking boor who need to learn to think before opening his mouth and letting his belly rumble? |
He didn't say or imply anything of the sort.
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: Tories terrorise the meek and the lame. |
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| landg wrote: | it is cheaper to pay jobseekers allowance than it is to pay incapacity ( to criminals who are ripping you and i off).
2+2= less benefits paid out and we are not being scammed by criminals. win win. |
Oh sorry Aventinian, I missed that part in small print about the criminal scammers only being a tiny portion of the people who receive incapacity benefits. Maybe you could point it out to me?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Shagpile
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 794
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| landg wrote: | | Rinty wrote: | | My son is also on incapacity benefit and couldnt possibly work. In fact, I dont know anyone who is on incapacity benefit who shouldnt be. |
i've met a lot of people who are on incapacity benefit who are fit to work. and there are a LOT of them out there. they are scamming the system. |
Capacity to be a Doctor. Incapacity to be objective......
Are you a Doctor?
Capacity to "finger" Tory against Labour?
MMWWAAHHAAAAAHHAAAAA....... he just couldn't make it up! |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | Resources and cash are used up dealing with benefit scammer while genuine claiments suffer and don't get the help and extra cash they need. |
Of course there are some people who would rather exert their fullest energies and motivation into the avoidance of work but Thatcher created an economy based on rich and poor and it's still there.
Moreover, the GBs and D cams of this world think it's acceptable to continue the social divide : GB through apathy and incompetence (billions upon billions in debt); D Cam because it's simply who he is.
It becomes time to pick on the scammers now that the idiot GB has built up enough debt to finance a space program. It's now their fault that GB and the Tories (they sat by and never said much) let the financial institutions run riot.
Oh for the good old days when public debt was in the 10s of billions... |
Thatcher got into power due to the SNP backing her at the Westminister elections because it served their purpose.
Thatcher hasn't been in power for decades either but yet is still blamed for the remaining political parties failing to sort out issues like this as they would rather concentrate on independence referendums. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Good grief! I've seen lots of revisionist versions of 1979, but that one takes the biscuit. The SNP did not support Thatcher in any way, they, along with all other opposition parties, joined in a vote of no confidence in the Labour government, which triggered the general election which brought Thatcher into power. That's it.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5557
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Tories terrorise the meek and the lame. |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Oh sorry Aventinian, I missed that part in small print about the criminal scammers only being a tiny portion of the people who receive incapacity benefits. Maybe you could point it out to me? |
A failure to remark that something is not the case does not show a belief that it is the case, particularly where the point in question is bloody obvious. |
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landg
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 617
Location: awaiting approval by a mod/admin
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Tories terrorise the meek and the lame. |
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| Holebender wrote: | | landg wrote: | it is cheaper to pay jobseekers allowance than it is to pay incapacity ( to criminals who are ripping you and i off).
2+2= less benefits paid out and we are not being scammed by criminals. win win. |
Oh sorry Aventinian, I missed that part in small print about the criminal scammers only being a tiny portion of the people who receive incapacity benefits. Maybe you could point it out to me? |
'a tiny proportion'. for f***s sake, where do get your information? your talking s***e. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | Stevie wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | Resources and cash are used up dealing with benefit scammer while genuine claiments suffer and don't get the help and extra cash they need. |
Of course there are some people who would rather exert their fullest energies and motivation into the avoidance of work but Thatcher created an economy based on rich and poor and it's still there.
Moreover, the GBs and D cams of this world think it's acceptable to continue the social divide : GB through apathy and incompetence (billions upon billions in debt); D Cam because it's simply who he is.
It becomes time to pick on the scammers now that the idiot GB has built up enough debt to finance a space program. It's now their fault that GB and the Tories (they sat by and never said much) let the financial institutions run riot.
Oh for the good old days when public debt was in the 10s of billions... |
Thatcher got into power due to the SNP backing her at the Westminster elections because it served their purpose.
Thatcher hasn't been in power for decades either but yet is still blamed for the remaining political parties failing to sort out issues like this as they would rather concentrate on independence referendums. |
I can honestly say you had to be there. I suspect your not of an age to have experienced the full glory of Thatcher's criminal politics.
As far as the SNP letting Thatcher into power, LOL dear Ultra, you should really check out the shenanigans that was the comedy of Jim Callaghan's Labour government? Quite ridiculous really...
Labour are corrupt and dead, they just don't know it yet. Actually, 'Labour' is dead but I'm referring to 'New Labour' (you know, the far right GB junta).
The Tories aren't dead but are alive and kicking at the moment but their day will come.
MY PREDICTION : Labour will crumble and the Lib dems will become the second force in British politics.
My predictions are usually not too far off the mark.
I predicted a while back Harriet Harmon would become the new Thatcherite leader of the Labour party and still think so.
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth! |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Tories terrorise the meek and the lame. |
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| landg wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | landg wrote: | it is cheaper to pay jobseekers allowance than it is to pay incapacity ( to criminals who are ripping you and i off).
2+2= less benefits paid out and we are not being scammed by criminals. win win. |
Oh sorry Aventinian, I missed that part in small print about the criminal scammers only being a tiny portion of the people who receive incapacity benefits. Maybe you could point it out to me? |
'a tiny proportion'. for fucks sake, where do get your information? your talking s***e. |
So, despite all those well-meaning folk desperately trying to defend you, you are in fact saying a sizeable number of people on invalidity benefits are scamming thieves. Would you care to offer us an estimate of how many? Half? Three quarters? All?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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True, it's easy to say something but actually justifying it requires facts and in this case there are NO figures because if you're caught you're struck off incapacity benefit and thus they are all de facto genuine claimants.
However, there are some Dirty Rotten Scoundrels.
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth! |
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landg
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 617
Location: awaiting approval by a mod/admin
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | True, it's easy to say something but actually justifying it requires facts and in this case there are NO figures because if you're caught you're struck off incapacity benefit and thus they are all de facto genuine claimants.
However, there are some Dirty Rotten Scoundrels.
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there are all sorts of facts on figures on benefit fraud in the dwp website. fraud is rife, it is not a tiny minority and costs £2,000,000,000 per year.
thats £2,000,000,000 taken away from genuine claimants.
to say it is a tiny minority is like a really bad socialist mind trick. ie. a BIG FAT LIE. |
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Shagpile
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 794
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| landg wrote: | | thats £2,000,000,000 taken away from genuine claimants. |
Crap!
Do you mean we can afford to pay an additional £2bn to claimants....... but we cant because there's too many claimants? Sorry, but you've gotta explainthat a tad better. |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| Shagpile wrote: | | landg wrote: | | thats £2,000,000,000 taken away from genuine claimants. |
Crap!
Do you mean we can afford to pay an additional £2bn to claimants....... but we cant because there's too many claimants? Sorry, but you've gotta explainthat a tad better. |
Pretty clear to me that Landg is talking about fraud costing £2bn to the tax payer due to fraudulent claimants and that money could be used to help genuine claimants more.
It's not difficult to understand when you don't apply blinkered selective reading to some peoples posts.
So what point are you trying to make Shag? We have too many claimants or we have no fraudulent claimants?
I'm failing to see how your post actually contributes to any debate we are having here. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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I had a look at the dwp site and didn't see any financial figures.
Where did you get your figures.
Incidentally, of course some gits are claiming falsely (corruption exists in every system, not least the banks and government) but a total of £2 billion is heresay because you can only estimate such figures, you can't prove them.
Unless you managed to remove £2 billion of fraudulent claims from the books last year... ridiculous suggestion.
The dwp site looks like a 'report your hated neighbour site' and as thus can't be relied on to give an unbiased result : it's their job to see fraud everywhere and I suppose they do.
As matter of fact the dwp seems to cost more to run than it saves apparently (£154 million) according to Computer Weekly
http://www.computerweekly.com/Art...nefit-fraud-detection-systems.htm
Computer Weekly... well it's no more or less reliable than the silly figure of £2 billion suggested or an even sillier preposterous figure of £170 billion (oh... that one's real, GB the grand high rythme master... well what about the silly idea that a member of parliament would get his moat cleaned at the public expense... mmn that one's true too)... oh f**k it, let's get the poor and the sick, those whingeing b******s have it coming!
Again, the meek and lame are the targets of the Uber Tories (actually they're the target of the Uber Labour Tories too), Thatcher is alive and well, and living in Downing street.
Oh incidentally, I've come to realise I'm the only person that realises that GB only wears blue ties these days. Why is that?
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth! |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | Pretty clear to me that Landg is talking about fraud costing £2bn to the tax payer due to fraudulent claimants and that money could be used to help genuine claimants more.
I'm failing to see how your post actually contributes to any debate we are having here. |
It's pretty clear to me that the right wing extravaganza that is the Ultra and landg show ought to check its figures in at the common sense logic department before pronouncing such things... but hey, I am willing to admit that anything is possible.
And I am smiling at your enthusiasm for the preference toward belief over facts.
It's fun to see the developing young Uber Tory at work...
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth! |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | Pretty clear to me that Landg is talking about fraud costing £2bn to the tax payer due to fraudulent claimants and that money could be used to help genuine claimants more.
I'm failing to see how your post actually contributes to any debate we are having here. |
It's pretty clear to me that the right wing extravaganza that is the Ultra and landg show ought to check its figures in at the common sense logic department before pronouncing such things... but hey, I am willing to admit that anything is possible.
And I am smiling at your enthusiasm for the preference toward belief over facts.
It's fun to see the developing young Uber Tory at work... |
I didn't put up any figures on how much benefit fraud costs? How much is it?
I am smiling from the fact that you actually went to look at the DWP site to try and prove some sort of point. Have you not got anything better to do? 
The figures on benefit fraud are there if you look hard enough... You fraud!
I suppose keeping it in the family is better. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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No, you didn't but you supported your right hand man's loony tune figures.
I only had a look for a laugh because anybody who throws out such a suggestion thinks we're all too lazy to check it out.
Simple really, tap dwp and all this nonsense of landg is seen for what it is. Of course the result is, he'll be reminded of his nonsense figures every time he tries to say something's a fact.
Deutchland Deutchland über alles...
They save £106 million but they cost £154 million... if you're willing to believe 'ComputerWeekly'... I'm not but they're more credible than landg : see it's started already...
Advice, don't support landg unless you already know he's right (I'm not sure if he ever is based on this newest abberation... see, happened again).
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth! |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | No, you didn't but you supported your right hand man's loony tune figures.
I only had a look for a laugh because anybody who throws out such a suggestion thinks we're all too lazy to check it out.
Simple really, tap dwp and all this nonsense of landg is seen for what it is. Of course the result is, he'll be reminded of his nonsense figures every time he tries to say something's a fact.
Deutchland Deutchland über alles...
They save £106 million but they cost £154 million... if you're willing to believe 'ComputerWeekly'... I'm not but they're more credible than landg : see it's started already...
Advice, don't support landg unless you already know he's right (I'm not sure if he ever is based on this newest abberation... see, happened again). |
Why would you want to 'check it out'?
What's Computer Weekly got to do with you providing the true cost of benefit fraud from the DWP site?
http://www.benefitfraud.org.uk/total-benefit-fraud/index.html
The £2bn figure actually came from this site as it was extensively reported in the UK media. Maybe these sort of 'Daily Mail' type stories don't reach you overseas? |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, I get your point but we're talking about 'incapacity benefit fraud' and landg is encompassing everything into his one particular pot of... who knows?
I'm not convinced by these figures either.
Just about as reliable as the government figures and the Computer Weekly figures.
Still, the £2 billion has bug all to do with incapacity benefit claimants.
I wonder if I can claim for some moat cleaning... ?
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
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Rinty
Jim Baxter is God...........really!!!!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 3601
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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The 2B figure is an old one which is now usually reported as an estimated 800M.
However, this is a guess and pushed mostly by those who want to cut the welfare system.
The last full years figures that I can find (2006/7) showed a total of 105M identified as overpaid due to fraud. It cost, as has been said, 154M to discover this fraud, meaning a los of 49M that could be spent on genuine claimants 
In 2007 it was estimated that a total of 339M was unrecovered from overpayments due to fraud, this was the accumulative historical total, not one years money, the total money!
There is no evidence that I can see to suggest that any savings from benefit fraud would lead to increased payments for existing claimants, that is a red herring. Calculations on how much claimants get is usually based on the minimum that they can get away with. It would be more likely to be spent in reducing business taxes
Meanwhile in 2004/05, the last figures that I could find, there was between 4.8B and 8B unclaimed benefits, with the DWP spending far less trying to track down the underclaimants than the fraudsters.
Many of the underclaimants are the very people who suffer form social and/or mental health problems, the very ones that right-wingers accuse of being the scroungers.
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