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Reluctant Hero · Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:17 pm Post subject: Old Firm To England

Just go.

Go now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/r/rangers/8297988.stm

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landg · Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:50 pm Post subject:

please let us go.
did anyone see peter lawells rant today, comparing the 'tragedies' celtic have suffered to man utd's.
"If you look at our story and compare it to Manchester United: the beginnings, the triumphs, the tragedies, the characters, they are almost identical''. said peter today.

yes i can get a link if i have too.

can someone enlighten me?

what is the tragedy in celtics history compared man utd's?

William_Cleland · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:49 am Post subject:

It would rapidly mean the end of Scottish football as a separate entity if it happens and a UK league structure and national team would soon emerge. People who support Scottish independence should see the failure to comfortably accommodate Scotland's top two clubs in a Scottish national structure as a major problem. As recently as the mid-80s things were very different in that regard because provincial clubs like Dundee United and Aberdeen could take on the giants of the European game and win.
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No more boom and bust - Gordon Brown

landg · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:39 am Post subject:

Rinty · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:33 am Post subject:

I dont think that this is unique to scotland William, or even to football. The game has changed dramatically in the last couple of decades. Like society in general, there has been a focus on the top with the resources becoming channeled towards the top and the gap between rich and poor getting wider.

The Lithgae Jambo · Helping with the Count Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 362

Rinty · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:41 am Post subject:

personally I think that the scottish game would survive and some of the next bigger clubs would eventually be better off.

I once read that Livingston and Hibs, in successive seasons, won the 1st Div and then had a 'good' season in the SPL following promotion. Yet, both clubs sold less tickets to their home fans during the 'succesful' season in the SPL than in their championship winning season in the league below.

William_Cleland · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:10 pm Post subject:

William_Cleland · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:22 pm Post subject:

Rinty · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:56 pm Post subject:

I dont think that we should automatically assume that we will become the Irish leagues. And anyway, those leagues are themselves changing with the new dynamics in football.

I would think that following Killie, Hibs, Motherwell etc might be more attractive, post old-firm, as they can actually win the league and qualify for the Champiopns League.

the new set-up in the CL mean that champions in smaller countries have a better chance of qualifying so the Scottish leagues could be alongside other similar sized nations like Norway, Cyprus, Finland and actually get through to the group stages.

the evidence I quoted re Hibs and Livingston suggests that fans will turn up in higher numbers if they can win whatever league they are in.

And, of course. football is a bigger deal culturally in Scotland than in Ireland, Cyprus etc.

Kilmarnock pointed out last season that they now make very little from the old firm as their home games are covered by TV leading to moving the fixture and lesser crowds which eats up the money from hosting the TV.

If there was a Great Britain league I dont think that many if any of the scottish teams outside of the old firm would survive at a very high level.

The Lithgae Jambo · Helping with the Count Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 362

Rinty · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject:

My personal view is that the way forward to protect the differing interests of the big clubs in small leagues and the remaining clubs in those leagues (eg Old Firm, portugese big three, dutch big three, copenhagen, anderlecht and others) is an extension to the european competitions.

This years new format of CL and Europa League means a slightly weaker group stage in the CL, opening it up to champions from smaller nations, and a stronger second competition, with more runners up in bigger leagues going there instead of the CL.

I dont see the merit in having two competitions any more. A european competition with 16 groups of 6 teams would generate enough extra income to help big clubs survive in smaller leagues and, at the same time, create more opportunities for other clubs in the smaller leagues and champions of even smaller leagues to qualify.

A straight knockoput competition for champions only, running alongside this, would be good too.

To accommodate this most countries would have to reduce the amount of domestic games. In Scotland this could be done easiest by increasing the size of the top league, sharing the money around more clubs.

William_Cleland · Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:39 am Post subject:

The Lithgae Jambo · Helping with the Count Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 362

William_Cleland · Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:56 am Post subject:

The idea that Scotland could be independent and that Rangers and Celtic could play in an English league structure in the aftermath is completely bonkers and it says something about modern Scottish nationalism that many people are delusional enough to believe that UEFA would allow that.

Even without independence it is a breathtaking case of people wanting to have their cake and eat it too. The anomaly of top Welsh clubs playing in England's league structure is tolerated for reasons of historical precedence and because Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are lower division teams but if highly visible Champions League level clubs from Scotland started trying to do it as well there would inevitably be a major backlash over Scotland's ability to field a national team, because many people outside the British Isles find it completely inexplicable and deeply resent it.

If people want to have a separate national team then the integrity of the Scottish game as a fully separate entity from that of England needs to be maintained. This issue should be as important to Tartan Army types as not having a UK team at the 2012 Olympics but some people are so filled with envy and spite where the Old Firm are concerned that they could end up pulling the roof down on their own heads and destroying what they claim to love.
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No more boom and bust - Gordon Brown

The Lithgae Jambo · Helping with the Count Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 362

William_Cleland · Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:36 am Post subject:

The Lithgae Jambo · Helping with the Count Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 362

William_Cleland · Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:58 am Post subject:

I wrote that and you misinterpreted what I meant by it. I am not going to join you on a tangent to the thread based on your misinterpretation rather that my own arguments that I have now repeated ad nauseam. I won't follow up any more posts unless you have something new and/or interesting to say at this point.
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No more boom and bust - Gordon Brown

The Lithgae Jambo · Helping with the Count Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 362