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Red Justice
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 758
Location: Kirkcaldy, Fife
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 Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Dave that more powers on the ballot paper have to be defined. But I still prefer a straight Yes/No independence referendum. All the campaign organisations for a referendum have fallen silent and left the SNP to get on with their promises of a Referendum Bill.
The problem is the SNP are constitutional nationalists tied to the parliamentary system. With support for an independence referendum being amongst many and probably most Scots, what is required is a campaign that involves political parties, trade unionists, individuals, public figures and more. A mass demand for a referendum that goes beyond the SNP and simply asks for a Yes/No to independence.
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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Damned fine answer!
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Red Justice
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 758
Location: Kirkcaldy, Fife
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Stevie. I do not have all the answers but I do remember the campaign for a Scottish Parly was big with Scotland United taking to the streets in Edinburgh. Also a vigil in place and the potential to effect public opinion. Too much has rested on the SNP alone and that to me is a mistake. Public meetings with speakers from political parties and more should be touring the country.
_________________
“For socialists, independence is not about the colour or type of flag flying on our public buildings. It is about creating a better society. It is about putting people before profit"
Tommy Sheridan
http://scottishsocfree.blogspot.com |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Red Justice wrote: | | I agree with Dave that more powers on the ballot paper have to be defined. But I still prefer a straight Yes/No independence referendum. |
Well, like I said | Quote: | | if neither the LibDems nor any of the other unionist organisations can get their act together sufficiently to spell out exactly what it is that they want, in writing, in a pamphlet or booklet, in time for a referendum in 2010, then the referendum should proceed as planned, without such an option. Because the absence of such an option would then be THEIR fault. |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5557
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Everything done to/for Scotland by Westminster will be done by Holyrood. Have you got that? |
That's not a definition of independence now, is it? No, that's simply a statement of how powers will be transferred. We've been over this before if you recall, and I've badgered you about it quite a bit, and you (not to mention everyone else here) failed to provide a plausible answer to a very simple question.
| Quote: | | And don't you ever make another anti-English crack to me or I will report you to the moderators and demand your censure. You have absolutely no ground for such a remark and I would really like you to withdraw it. I don't expect an apology as I don't believe you have the grace for such a thing, but the least you can do is withdraw it. I buried my English father this Summer and I don't need imbeciles like you making groundless, distasteful remarks like you have. Prick. |
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| Stevie wrote: | | Since your Brit Nat nationalism is a nationalism you don't oppose then your just playing with definitions to suit yourself. |
Except of course that I am not a British nationalist.
| Quote: | | It's complete nonsense to suggest someone who campaigns for independence for a nation is only doing so to avoid the English from governing them. You can tell that to the Indians and numerous nation states that broke away from the Brits and their reply is not, 'We just did it to avoid being governed by Englishmen. |
In many cases, I rather think they did. However at least the Indians actually campaigned for a certain level of self-government. As the 'in Europe' policy of the SNP shows, it's not the level of self-government they care about, it's who they happen to be tied to that counts.
| Quote: | | Out of simple curiosity, should India still be glued to the Brit government in your view because you oppose nationalism. |
No, it shouldn't be. India was held as a colony. I oppose imperial relationships between places. The UK would no more have wanted to absorb India than India would have wanted to be absorbed into the UK.
| Quote: | | Let's be clear about a definition of nationalism (and certainly the definition that applies to the Scots) : it's a desire within a group of people with a similar cultural, political, historical link to have things done their own way and not in some general arbitrary way that doesn't appeal to their views. A desire for self determination in a positive way is not the same as the loony goosestepping minions of Orwellian nightmare. |
All nationalism comes from the same root, and from that root comes a great deal of very horrible things. You may be moderate nationalists, but it does not make you immune from the same moral taint as those who express the more extreme versions of your ideology. |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5557
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | A referendum with an un-defined "more powers" option would be like an East German election - we'll give you the appearance of choice, so long as the established regime wins. |
Quite the contrary, I'm sure if an option of independence is given, 'more powers' - or perhaps 'more powers within the United Kingdom' would be self explanatory.
Again, though, we see referendums in very different ways: I see them as a way of consulting the public; you see them as a way of getting the public to vote for (or against) a specific policy that is already well formulated in your mind. |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 4291
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: |
| Quote: | | And don't you ever make another anti-English crack to me or I will report you to the moderators and demand your censure. You have absolutely no ground for such a remark and I would really like you to withdraw it. I don't expect an apology as I don't believe you have the grace for such a thing, but the least you can do is withdraw it. I buried my English father this Summer and I don't need imbeciles like you making groundless, distasteful remarks like you have. Prick. |
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Seriously, was there any need for this sort of response?
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Last edited by azzuri on Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: |
I'm afraid the shoe rather often fits on this forum. |
I've warned you. Provide evidence for that defamatory statement or withdraw it and apologise. Now.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:26 am Post subject: |
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The online Cambridge Dictionary provides the following definition: | Quote: | Definition
independence noun
/ˌɪn.dɪˈpen.dənt s/ n [U]
•
freedom from being governed or ruled by another country
Mexico gained its independence from Spain in l821. |
For those who have extreme difficulty distinguishing the difference due to some mental deficiency, the "other country" in Scotland's case is the UK.
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5557
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | For those who have extreme difficulty distinguishing the difference due to some mental deficiency, the "other country" in Scotland's case is the UK. |
The UK isn't another country. Mexico, the example given, was never part of Spain.
| Holebender wrote: | | Aventinian wrote: |
I'm afraid the shoe rather often fits on this forum. |
I've warned you. Provide evidence for that defamatory statement or withdraw it and apologise. Now. |
How about you look at mairead's signature for a start. There's certainly been a lot worse on here. Indeed, at least one person on this forum has a criminal conviction for racially harassing English people.
I'm certainly not going to apologise. Nor indeed am I going to go around substantiating every single comment I make. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Listen... you have accused me of anti-English posts and I have asked you to back those claims. Now you try to deflect your guilt by pointing to another poster's signature.
Pay very careful attention I am not Mairead, nor am I connected in any way with her, nor am I responsible for anything she posts. Have you got that?
Justify your claims that I make anti-English posts or withdraw them and apologise or I will be asking for your membership to be suspended because of your defamation.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | one person on this forum has a criminal conviction for racially harassing English people |
Even if that is true, it certainly wasn't Holebender. Indeed, in his previous incarnation as "Independence First Convenor", Holebender sponsored a motion to expell somebody at whom such an accusation had been levelled | Holebender wrote: | | Listen... you have accused me of anti-English posts and I have asked you to back those claims. Now you try to deflect your guilt by pointing to another poster's signature. |
Yes, Aventinian is rather careless with such accusations. | Holebender wrote: | | Pay very careful attention I am not Mairead, nor am I connected in any way with her, nor am I responsible for anything she posts. Have you got that? |
| Holebender wrote: | | Justify your claims that I make anti-English posts or withdraw them and apologise or I will be asking for your membership to be suspended because of your defamation. |
If Aventinian doesn't withdraw and apologise, and if you do go ahead with such a request, then I think the moderators would have little option but to act upon your request. They can't risk the Our Scotland forum as such being accused of defamation. Mind you, you would be on firmer ground if you were in the habit of using your own name. If Aventinian was defaming a person using their own name, even if you identifying who "Aventinian" is was proving a wee bit tricky, there would be no such difficulty over identifying the website broadcasting the defamation. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | | Since your Brit Nat nationalism is a nationalism you don't oppose then your just playing with definitions to suit yourself. |
| Aventinian wrote: |
Except of course that I am not a British nationalist.
All nationalism comes from the same root, and from that root comes a great deal of very horrible things. You may be moderate nationalists, but it does not make you immune from the same moral taint as those who express the more extreme versions of your ideology. |
You've probably noticed by now that I don't enter into to-and-fro detail debates BUT you support the 'status quo'(which is the Brit Nat way of saying I like being British) therefore you choose the British nation state in preference to a Scottish nation state, therefore you are a British nationalist by choice / default whichever you choose and you defend this state vociferously.
You are playing with words or (pardon my choiceof words ) fooling yourself.
As far as comparing us to even moderate Nazis... not true and unpleasant and you're being disingenuous.
It's possible to love something without basing it on hatred for something else. You seem to love the idea of Britain and this is not based on a hatred for Scotland or France or Australia etc.
I understand your 'anti-English' criticism (although others don't) but it's very out-of-date and not where anyone is at in this day and age.
When I was a kid, people said anti-English slurs (in fact in Scotland the word English was often immediately followed by b*****s) but this was due to historical frustration, not race hatred (we're the same caucasian race and it doesn't even make sense to mention racism). Now, it's time to put away childish things and develop a nation not based on negativity but on a positive set of principles for the future.
Why don't you join us?
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu bràth! |
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Kevin
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 59
Location: United States
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see why Scottish independence would have anything to do with hating the English. It simply makes sense to have a government closer to the people and more susceptible to what the Scottish people want, as opposed to a centralized bigger government in London making important decisions for Scotland. A more decentralized government is a good thing.
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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1021
Location: Clydesdale
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Kevin wrote: | | I don't see why Scottish independence would have anything to do with hating the English. It simply makes sense to have a government closer to the people and more susceptible to what the Scottish people want, as opposed to a centralized bigger government in London making important decisions for Scotland. A more decentralized government is a good thing. |
Bingo!
Regrettabely there are those who are unable to seperate these issues in their minds. It's like saying every Brit Nat is a member of the BNP and supports it's unsavoury agenda ... nonsense obviously.
Unfortunately Av, has a block on the issue ... it's something I tend to try and rise above seeing as he makes some other rather good points and is otherwise fairly sensible.
I do think that his comments in relation to HB though were bang out of order.
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| That's what the point of Devolution was. A Government able to make the spending decisions over issues closer to home than Westminster. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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A government which is given its pocket money on the whim of another government. As we have seen in the last couple of years, if those governments are of different political hues and the one with the purse is particularly petty there can be all sorts of needless problems. It is no way to run an administration.
At the very least, a government needs to be able to control its own revenue stream.
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Scotland wanted to make decisions on how it spent its money, on home turf. It got it in the form of its Government. Moaning about that? |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Alasdair wrote: | | It's like saying every Brit Nat is a member of the BNP and supports it's unsavoury agenda ... nonsense obviously. |
Precisely my point some time back Alasdair when I pointed out that Av is a Brit Nat.
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu bràth! |
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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1021
Location: Clydesdale
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | | Alasdair wrote: | | It's like saying every Brit Nat is a member of the BNP and supports it's unsavoury agenda ... nonsense obviously. |
Precisely my point some time back Alasdair when I pointed out that Av is a Brit Nat. |
Except I'm not saying that Av is a Brit Nat, in fact it's something I believe he has expressly denied. If I've read him right I believe that he's far more interested in international or supranational co-operation and international development on the basis of developing wider cross border agreement and security for all ... although it's certainly not my place to speak for him.
Perhaps I'm mistaken, maybe he could enlighten us all as to which -ism we can apply, are you an ardent supporter of supranationalism Av?
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My arts and crafts site http://madestuff.co.uk |
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