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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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 Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:14 am Post subject: Re: The unionist position |
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| Shagpile wrote: | | Labour are "Not opposed to the referendum in principle", but say it's the wrong time. Last week it was reported on CNN that the UK will see shoots of recovery and have positive growth in 2010. |
Sounds like an excessively optimistic view to me. I'm no expert on economics matters, but there are plenty of them that are who also think the assessment excessively optimistic. | Shagpile wrote: | | That ought to curb their objections to a referendum. |
That sounds like treating their objections to a referendum "at this time of economic crisis" as if they were genuine, which they are not. Gordon Brown has promised a referendum on changing the voting system for UK elections. No mention of "not at this time of economic crisis" where that is concerned. The Tories are committed to a referendum before they will sign up to the Euro, and the right wing of their party want a more general referendum on EU matters. No mention of "not at this time of economic crisis" from them either. Since that objection is entirely fake, there is no point in waiting for a more "appropriate" economic climate.
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William_Cleland
I need ma own bl**dy forum!
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 1180
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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The latest economic growth figures are truly dire:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8321970.stm
The UK economy unexpectedly contracted by 0.4% between July and September, according to official figures, meaning the country is still in recession.
....
The worse-than-expected GDP figures are likely to make the Bank of England consider extending its policy of quantitative easing.
Quantitative easing is the central bank's policy of printing money and using it to buy bonds from banks and other companies to help stimulate the economy.
"Back in August we had a worse-than-expected second-quarter GDP number and that is the reason that the Bank of England extended the quantitative easing programme," Bronwyn Curtis from HSBC told the BBC.
Desperate and highly risky measures have had to be taken to keep the decline in GDP limited to 5.9% since the start of the recession. That can't continue indefinitely. Once the general election is out of the way there are going to have to be drastic cuts to public spending along the lines of what happened under Thatcher in the early 80s to get budget deficits back under control again. From a Westminster perspective it may be highly tempting to download more fiscal powers to Holyrood so that the cuts can't so easily be turned into a Scotland vs England thing by the SNP and to remove the grievances south of the border about perceived subsidies of Scotland by English taxpayers (please desist from telling me that Scotland actually subsidises England because that doesn't address the point being made).
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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1021
Location: Clydesdale
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| William_Cleland wrote: | | ... From a Westminster perspective it may be highly tempting to download more fiscal powers to Holyrood so that the cuts can't so easily be turned into a Scotland vs England thing by the SNP and to remove the grievances south of the border about perceived subsidies of Scotland by English taxpayers ... |
Unless there is a full review of the devolution settlement north and south of the border it is unlikely that any grievances (percieved or otherwise) will be laid to rest.
Continuing to devolve powers to Scotland and the other assembles will only serve to feed into a perceived bias against England unless calls for an English Assembly/Parliament are seriously considered as part of any aforementioned review.
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My arts and crafts site http://madestuff.co.uk |
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magister ludi
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 225
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| Alasdair wrote: | | yup there are are miriad of dreams for an independent scotland, the end will be a compromise based on the democratic process. |
I'll ride the tiger by the tail and vote for re-independence......but democracy, that's altogether something new....and maybe a step too far.....
What do you mean "not now" ?
Bring it on!! |
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Shagpile
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 794
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:57 am Post subject: Re: The unionist position |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Shagpile wrote: | | Labour are "Not opposed to the referendum in principle", but say it's the wrong time. Last week it was reported on CNN that the UK will see shoots of recovery and have positive growth in 2010. |
Sounds like an excessively optimistic view to me. I'm no expert on economics matters, but there are plenty of them that are who also think the assessment excessively optimistic. |
I agree it's optimistic..... but I'll bet it's the one Labour will be spinning.
| Dave Coull wrote: | | Shagpile wrote: | | That ought to curb their objections to a referendum. |
That sounds like treating their objections to a referendum "at this time of economic crisis" as if they were genuine, which they are not. Gordon Brown has promised a referendum on changing the voting system for UK elections. No mention of "not at this time of economic crisis" where that is concerned. The Tories are committed to a referendum before they will sign up to the Euro, and the right wing of their party want a more general referendum on EU matters. No mention of "not at this time of economic crisis" from them either. Since that objection is entirely fake, there is no point in waiting for a more "appropriate" economic climate. |
Again.... I would have to say I agree. 'Devils Advocacy' was my 'tounge in cheek' take on what I suspect their pre election spin would be. Personally there is NO valid reason for denying the Scottish electorate their verdict on a straight independence Yes or No referendum. |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:05 am Post subject: Re: The unionist position |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Shagpile wrote: | | Labour are "Not opposed to the referendum in principle", but say it's the wrong time. Last week it was reported on CNN that the UK will see shoots of recovery and have positive growth in 2010. |
Sounds like an excessively optimistic view to me. I'm no expert on economics matters, but there are plenty of them that are who also think the assessment excessively optimistic. |
I think it's fair to say the 'experts' are far from expert as well given the recent financial meltdown that few of them profess to have seen coming. Endless credit being thrown at people and news reports of britain smashing through the Trillion barrier of personal debt.. yet the standard line from our so called experts was that nobody seen it coming. And even in the throes of it they couldn't make their minds up about what was going on. Experts indeed. What a laugh! |
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Shagpile
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 794
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: The unionist position |
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| Fidget wrote: | | I think it's fair to say the 'experts' are far from expert as well given the recent financial meltdown that few of them profess to have seen coming. Endless credit being thrown at people and news reports of britain smashing through the Trillion barrier of personal debt.. yet the standard line from our so called experts was that nobody seen it coming. And even in the throes of it they couldn't make their minds up about what was going on. Experts indeed. What a laugh! |
The green shoots have not appeared yet, CNN reported -0.4% growth for the UK....... a tad short (disapointingly) of their own prediction. |
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Cruachan
Helping with the Count
Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 296
Location: The English Midlands
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: The unionist position |
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| Shagpile wrote: | | Fidget wrote: | | I think it's fair to say the 'experts' are far from expert as well given the recent financial meltdown that few of them profess to have seen coming. Endless credit being thrown at people and news reports of britain smashing through the Trillion barrier of personal debt.. yet the standard line from our so called experts was that nobody seen it coming. And even in the throes of it they couldn't make their minds up about what was going on. Experts indeed. What a laugh! |
The green shoots have not appeared yet, CNN reported -0.4% growth for the UK....... a tad short (disapointingly) of their own prediction. |
Of course apart from the, actually quite bad news, this does give Iain Gray more time to put off his eventual capitulation on a Referendum vote 
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IT'S TIME.
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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See... every Labour cloud has a Labour silver lining!
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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cuthill76
Finding Ma' Way
Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Alasdair wrote: | | I'm not a unionist Iain, but it sounds like you've already made your mind up! |
Yeh my feet are firmly in the nationalist camp although I think it is important to engage with others and take on board their viewpoint.
As far as I am concerned being in favour of the union is fine as long it is accompanied by some supporting arguments. I just want to know what these are as to me I struggle to see through all the negativity and spin surrounding the independance position.
I was hoping to spark a bit of a debate around the set of issues that I listed so that I could hear more views from both sides. Thanks to all those who provide positive input.
Iain |
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cuthill76
Finding Ma' Way
Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:19 pm Post subject: Re: The unionist position |
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| landg wrote: |
tbh it's not worth the hassle or the time.
but i've seen or heard nothing from nationalists to suggest anything would be any different never mind better.
and stop with the wee/stupid crap. it's a nationalist mind trick and manipulation. |
No offense mate but why bother saying anything then? |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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landg has trouble saying things, so when he puts together a coherent sentence it's always thrilling no matter if it truly does or doesn't make sense.
However, he seems happy and often laughs merrily at his own jokes (actually most of the Brit Nats do).
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Alba gu bràth! |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5558
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| cuthill76 wrote: | | As far as I am concerned being in favour of the union is fine as long it is accompanied by some supporting arguments. I just want to know what these are as to me I struggle to see through all the negativity and spin surrounding the independance position. |
Well, it rather strikes me as an odd question. Nationalist 'arguments' can just as effectively be made for one 'nation' as for another. As such, people with a British nationalist viewpoint can simply translate the arguments Scottish nationalists use, crossing out 'Scotland' and inserting 'Britain'. Indeed, for all their talk about civic nationalism, Britishness is one of the truest civic nationalisms out there. Both Scotland and Britain are 'state-nations', where identity has grown up around national institutions rather than vice-versa, but Britishness has managed to exist in relative harmony with pre-existing national identities. You very rarely meet a Pict, or a Strathclyde Briton anymore...
For my part, I use another argument: I base my opposition to Scottish nationalism on a rejection of all nationalism. I very much like the institutions of the British state because it is a very early example of the rejection of the nationalist politics of that period: it was created to widen trade, secure liberty through the entrenchment of constitutional monarchy and so forth. However I also recognise that we anti-nationalists must not build our own state-nationalisms, which is why we cannot become too attached to any state no matter how grand and glorious its past. That is why I am pro-Europe and indeed pro-internationalism. |
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Braveheart
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 197
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Cuthill76
| Quote: | | To the unionists. Can you please clarify your position on why being part of the Union is a good thing? Can you please do this by providing tangible reasons and please avoid simply negative attacks on the nationalist position. |
Hey you: can you please tell me why we shouldn't cut off our right arm? Can you please do this by providing tangible reasons and please avoid negative attacks on the Amputatist position..
Whut? Who are you?
I speak for your right arm..
No you don't.
Yes I do, I'm the Right Arm Amputatist Party (RAAP)
Where are you? And how can you claim to speak for my right arm?
I'm here...down here..that's right... a pinkie. And I demand redress for past wrongs....
What wrongs...
Nobody asked me to be attached to your body....it just happened, before I was born. I wasn't consulted and I demand redress. Chop off the arm.
But your not my right arm, your just a tiny minority digit...
...I speak for the whole of the arm, and I demand amputation, or at least a referendum on amputation. And I want it now. Or later. And I demand that you give me reasons why I shouldn't amputate..
But that's crazy. I don't have to tell you why I want to stay attached to my right arm. It's always beeen there, it works quite well, if I lost it I would be a bit hampered and I have no desire to lose it. As for the arm, how would it survive on its own?
There's tons of small arms surviving quite well all over the world. They don't need foreign shoulders to lean on or foreign legs to help them get about. They're called the Arms of Prosperity, and you get them from Iceland to Ireland....
But I don't need to tell you why I want to keep my arm. It's my arm and I like it. That's enough for me...
BODYIST!
What do you mean?
Your a bodyist. You want to keep your body whole and deny me the right of amputation.
But it's my arm! Dammit, I don't see any sensible reason to cut it off.
Why should you keep it?
Why not?
See. You refuse to give any reasons why you should keep your arm. Your stupid and bodyist and you don't have any reasons for keeping your arm.
Apart from it works and its mine and I don't want to lose it? Isn't that enough?
Not for us Amputists. We don't agree with connection and we demand Amputaton now!
Yer aff yer heid mate. It's you that should be justifying amputation, not me that should be justifying keeping my body parts...
COWARD! BODYIST! and so on ad infinitum...
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