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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1040
Location: Clydesdale
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 Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Alasdair wrote: | | he's ill-educated |
Home Counties expensive private boarding school and University of Cambridge, "ill-educated"? In one sense, I have to agree that such an education can have some important things missing, but in no way was he "deprived" educationally or otherwise. |
Lucky then that I didn't say he was 'un'-educated. He has clearly been 'ill'-educated to have reached the conclusions he has, no doubt he was indoctrinated at an early age and attending NF meetings from the age of 15 can't have helped him to develop a broad and open-minded attitude.
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My arts and crafts site http://madestuff.co.uk |
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Rinty
Jim Baxter is God...........really!!!!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 3621
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| fascism is a term that is used so loosely nowadays that it is often used on the wrong people, but Griffin and the BNP certainly fit the bill. A party based on a national identity defined by race who believe in an authroitarian mono-culture, social-darwinism and linked to national religions and/or mythology would fit the bill, the BNP are all of that. |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 576
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Alasdair wrote: |
It seems that he is now to make a formal complaint about the programme, presumabely because he didn't get treated as pleasantly as he had hoped: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8322322.stm
I've not seen the whole programme yet, however, from what I have seen I've seen other politicians being treated worse. He can't hack it because he's ill-educated and delusuional. |
I watched it and was really disappointed. From the word go it was just an anti bnp-fest. I thought the idea was to be discussing issues and have all the panelists' takes on it. But no. It was a lets gang up on Griffin fest - with even Dimbleby in on it. It was more as if Griffin was in some Kangaroo court with the way he getting asked things like "do you deny saying [whatever]".
And what was Greer there for? Her skin colour? Can only have been since her opener was "I don't know anything about Politics". So why the hell was she on the panel?
Straw I had to laugh at with his world war rhetoric as some sort of justification for today's state of play on immigration. It was a very different story not so long ago from Labour with their stance on the Gurka soldiers settling here. Shame nobody picked him up on that.
In my opinion, it was more of a kangaroo court than Question Time and the panelists all let themselves down badly. I can't help but wonder if they went down that road on purpose to avoid having to have any meaningful discussion. |
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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1040
Location: Clydesdale
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | I watched it and was really disappointed. From the word go it was just an anti bnp-fest. I thought the idea was to be discussing issues and have all the panelists' takes on it. But no. It was a lets gang up on Griffin fest - with even Dimbleby in on it. It was more as if Griffin was in some Kangaroo court with the way he getting asked things like "do you deny saying [whatever]".
And what was Greer there for? Her skin colour? Can only have been since her opener was "I don't know anything about Politics". So why the hell was she on the panel?
Straw I had to laugh at with his world war rhetoric as some sort of justification for today's state of play on immigration. It was a very different story not so long ago from Labour with their stance on the Gurka soldiers settling here. Shame nobody picked him up on that.
In my opinion, it was more of a kangaroo court than Question Time and the panelists all let themselves down badly. I can't help but wonder if they went down that road on purpose to avoid having to have any meaningful discussion. |
This seems to have been the wider opinion around the programme and I can see how the BBC, and I guess and senior politicians, probably agreed that this would be the best way to proceed. It was always bound to backfire allowing the BNP to portray themselves as some sort of 'hard-done-to' working man's party amongst the 'metropolitan elite'.
The BNP's reaction and the level of BNP supporting complaints has the air of an orchestrated event about it.
A far more effective way to proceed would have been to lay out the agenda of the programme in the usual way, including some of the negative media attention in the last few days, and allowing Nick Griffin to unravel in this fashion.
_________________
My blog - http://manaboutthehouse.wordpress.com
My arts and crafts site http://madestuff.co.uk |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1226
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: BNP, fascists or what? |
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| Alasdair wrote: | | I do wonder if the fascist label arises from the notion that, in the unlikely event, of them achieving any real power they would transpire to be fascist in nature and seek to supress opposition, particularly where this eminated from ethnic minority groups. |
This is what I imagine too.
_________________
Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth! |
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magister ludi
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 234
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | [
This man who complains about a "metropolitan elite" is a Home Counties private school, Cambridge, lawyer/businessman, and professional politician. He is also (of course) in favour of a Strong Centralised Government. In London. |
thanks dave,
I always thought he man, his party and his politics were irrelevant ( well, marginal).....so I haven't in any way bothered to research him....now you've got me worried......now I think I understand why the metropolitan elite are making such a fuss. It's a game to these people isn't it? |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 576
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Rinty wrote: | | fascism is a term that is used so loosely nowadays that it is often used on the wrong people, but Griffin and the BNP certainly fit the bill. |
Don't you ever wonder why that is so, though? It is a word that is quite succint in meaning.. so how come it can be loosely bandied around? 'Racist' is another word that is succinct in meaning yet is now at the extent that it is subjective - ie that's racist because I say it is. Too much social engineering has been going on. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1226
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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Appears the BNP are at 22% in the polls and Mandy reckons they'll get a boost at or after the election (just as I suggested yesterday), my predictions are usually not too far off the mark... but this is a special case.
22%... and Labour have how much?
_________________
Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth!
Last edited by Stevie on Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 576
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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You have got to be the only person on the planet bothered about the ratings of the bnp.  |
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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1040
Location: Clydesdale
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | Appears the BNP are at 22% in the polls and Mandy reckons they'll get a boost at or after the election (just as I suggested yesterday), my predictions are usually not too far off the mark... but this is a special case.
22%... and Labour have how much? |
That figure must be wrong. Where did you find that?!
In the 2005 GE they polled just 0.7% (192,746 votes) of the vote, in the 2007 SE they took 1.2% (24,616) of the regional vote, in the EU vote this year they took 6.2% (943,598 votes) of the votes.
The EU election say a marked increase but was against the background of the Labour party losing 6.9% of it's vote which appears to have been shared out amongst the other parties. Also a huge number of people failed to turn out.
Anyway, it seems *extremely* unlikely that their potential share of the vote should have leapt to 22%!
_________________
My blog - http://manaboutthehouse.wordpress.com
My arts and crafts site http://madestuff.co.uk |
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landg
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 617
Location: awaiting approval by a mod/admin
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | | Alasdair wrote: |
It seems that he is now to make a formal complaint about the programme, presumabely because he didn't get treated as pleasantly as he had hoped: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8322322.stm
I've not seen the whole programme yet, however, from what I have seen I've seen other politicians being treated worse. He can't hack it because he's ill-educated and delusuional. |
I watched it and was really disappointed. From the word go it was just an anti bnp-fest. I thought the idea was to be discussing issues and have all the panelists' takes on it. But no. It was a lets gang up on Griffin fest - with even Dimbleby in on it. It was more as if Griffin was in some Kangaroo court with the way he getting asked things like "do you deny saying [whatever]".
And what was Greer there for? Her skin colour? Can only have been since her opener was "I don't know anything about Politics". So why the hell was she on the panel?
Straw I had to laugh at with his world war rhetoric as some sort of justification for today's state of play on immigration. It was a very different story not so long ago from Labour with their stance on the Gurka soldiers settling here. Shame nobody picked him up on that.
In my opinion, it was more of a kangaroo court than Question Time and the panelists all let themselves down badly. I can't help but wonder if they went down that road on purpose to avoid having to have any meaningful discussion. |
without agreeing with griiffin in anyway it was the closest thing i have seen to school yard bullying i have ever seen. griiffin was shown not to be any kind of politician but just an idiotic and shambolic figurehead and mouthpiece.
it was an anti-bnp fest indeed.
that middleclass liberal audience did not represent the views of the many, many people who support the bnp for whatever reason. that was wrong.
the funniest part was when the chap said we would like to throw you out of the country - ehhhmmmmmmm irony or what.
this hijacking of griffin will only increase his vote at the election. i will never vote bnp but i did feel sorry for him in the way the usual qt format was abandoned and he was just a target for hate and anger.
as for the facists outside rioting? scumbags. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1226
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Alasdair wrote: | | Stevie wrote: | Appears the BNP are at 22% in the polls and Mandy reckons they'll get a boost at or after the election (just as I suggested yesterday), my predictions are usually not too far off the mark... but this is a special case.
22%... and Labour have how much? |
That figure must be wrong. Where did you find that?!
In the 2005 GE they polled just 0.7% (192,746 votes) of the vote, in the 2007 SE they took 1.2% (24,616) of the regional vote, in the EU vote this year they took 6.2% (943,598 votes) of the votes.
The EU election say a marked increase but was against the background of the Labour party losing 6.9% of it's vote which appears to have been shared out amongst the other parties. Also a huge number of people failed to turn out.
Anyway, it seems *extremely* unlikely that their potential share of the vote should have leapt to 22%! |
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/...ppearance/Article/200910415414525
SkyNews, seems it's a Telegraph poll and that ~43 % of the population in England have sympathy with a number of their policies.
_________________
Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth!
Last edited by Stevie on Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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landg
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 617
Location: awaiting approval by a mod/admin
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | | Rinty wrote: | | fascism is a term that is used so loosely nowadays that it is often used on the wrong people, but Griffin and the BNP certainly fit the bill. |
Don't you ever wonder why that is so, though? It is a word that is quite succint in meaning.. so how come it can be loosely bandied around? 'Racist' is another word that is succinct in meaning yet is now at the extent that it is subjective - ie that's racist because I say it is. Too much social engineering has been going on. |
the words racist, secterian,bigotted (amongst others) are thrown around like confetti. their true meaning has been lost and MOPE's find ways to use them in the most bizzare way.
you tend to find ill-educated fools use these words the most usually to facilitate their 'right to be offended'. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1226
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:33 am Post subject: |
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Seems at the moment, Ultra and I are right in our view of the rise of the BNP.
I'm sure it's fragile support but once you vote for a party it's easier to vote for them again and again.
If the BNP get 22% of the vote it will be interesting to watch the results at Westminster.
_________________
Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth! |
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landg
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 617
Location: awaiting approval by a mod/admin
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| landg wrote: | | Fidget wrote: | | Alasdair wrote: |
It seems that he is now to make a formal complaint about the programme, presumabely because he didn't get treated as pleasantly as he had hoped: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8322322.stm
I've not seen the whole programme yet, however, from what I have seen I've seen other politicians being treated worse. He can't hack it because he's ill-educated and delusuional. |
I watched it and was really disappointed. From the word go it was just an anti bnp-fest. I thought the idea was to be discussing issues and have all the panelists' takes on it. But no. It was a lets gang up on Griffin fest - with even Dimbleby in on it. It was more as if Griffin was in some Kangaroo court with the way he getting asked things like "do you deny saying [whatever]".
And what was Greer there for? Her skin colour? Can only have been since her opener was "I don't know anything about Politics". So why the hell was she on the panel?
Straw I had to laugh at with his world war rhetoric as some sort of justification for today's state of play on immigration. It was a very different story not so long ago from Labour with their stance on the Gurka soldiers settling here. Shame nobody picked him up on that.
In my opinion, it was more of a kangaroo court than Question Time and the panelists all let themselves down badly. I can't help but wonder if they went down that road on purpose to avoid having to have any meaningful discussion. |
without agreeing with griiffin in anyway it was the closest thing i have seen to school yard bullying i have ever seen. griiffin was shown not to be any kind of politician but just an idiotic and shambolic figurehead and mouthpiece.
it was an anti-bnp fest indeed.
that middleclass liberal audience did not represent the views of the many, many people who support the bnp for whatever reason. that was wrong.
the funniest part was when the chap said we would like to throw you out of the country - ehhhmmmmmmm irony or what.
this hijacking of griffin will only increase his vote at the election. i will never vote bnp but i did feel sorry for him in the way the usual qt format was abandoned and he was just a target for hate and anger.
as for the facists outside rioting? scumbags. |
hahahahha i've just seen the show described as jeremy kyle for the liberal elite. perfect. |
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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1040
Location: Clydesdale
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | | Alasdair wrote: | | Stevie wrote: | Appears the BNP are at 22% in the polls and Mandy reckons they'll get a boost at or after the election (just as I suggested yesterday), my predictions are usually not too far off the mark... but this is a special case.
22%... and Labour have how much? |
That figure must be wrong. Where did you find that?!
In the 2005 GE they polled just 0.7% (192,746 votes) of the vote, in the 2007 SE they took 1.2% (24,616) of the regional vote, in the EU vote this year they took 6.2% (943,598 votes) of the votes.
The EU election say a marked increase but was against the background of the Labour party losing 6.9% of it's vote which appears to have been shared out amongst the other parties. Also a huge number of people failed to turn out.
Anyway, it seems *extremely* unlikely that their potential share of the vote should have leapt to 22%! |
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/...ppearance/Article/200910415414525
SkyNews, seems it's a Telegraph poll and that ~43 % of the population in England have sympathy with a number of their policies. |
Hmm, curious. I really can't see how such poll results would be right, and 'considering' and 'having sympathy for' is still a long way from actually making the leap to 'vote for'. I do however see your point.
I imagine that the poll results are a reflection of the recent spate of publicity as well as a poorly handled question time. Maybe even a novelty factor.
I would be extremely concerned to see such a large growth in actual support (as opposed to potential support).
_________________
My blog - http://manaboutthehouse.wordpress.com
My arts and crafts site http://madestuff.co.uk |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2845
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | | what was Greer there for? Her skin colour? Can only have been since her opener was "I don't know anything about Politics". So why the hell was she on the panel? |
The only thing strange about this is that you should think she was "only there because of her colour". It is NORMAL, every week, to have somebody on the Question Time panel who distances themselves from "politics". Most certainly not an "ordinary person", you understand, but somebody who has made a name for themselves in some area of public life other than politics. Every Question Time panel includes one non-politician. They have had businessmen, professional comedians, musicians, artists, religious figures, etc. On this particular occasion they had Bonnie Greer, Deputy Chairman of the British Museum's Board of Trustees. Greer has written and produced many plays on both sides of the Atlantic. She is Arts Council of England Playwright in Residence for the London based Pascal Theatre Company. She was theatre critic for Time Out and is a frequent contributor to television, radio and newspaper reviews. She is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts and a Member of the Franco-British Council.
The case for including her on Question Time, on grounds of being an Arts person who is also responsible to the public (as Deputy Chairman of the British Museum) is clear. The odd thing is that you should think she was "only there because of her colour". I think the decision to seat her right next to Nick Griffin may have been made on grounds of the visual impact, but hey, it's colour television we're talking about, visual impact matters to the producers of programmes. In fact, visual impact would matter to them even if it was black and white television......
As it happens, I think Greer made a couple of good and thoughtful points. For instance, she pointed out how short Griffin's history of the British Isles was, and where the first inhabitants came from, and she invited him along to the British Museum to learn about the Roman legions from Africa and Asia who were stationed here for a couple of centuries, and who shacked up with native women, and whose descendants are still here (and yet some of those descendants want to "keep Britain white"...........) |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2845
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Alasdair wrote: | | I would be extremely concerned to see such a large growth in actual support (as opposed to potential support). |
I think we are very unlikely to see such a large increase in actual support, as distinct from potential support, even in England. I'm certainly not in favour of complacency, but neither am I in favour of exaggerating their strength. However, having said that, let's just suppose for one minute that they really did get significant support, IN ENGLAND , at the next election. This is the "Our Scotland" forum, so let's consider the impact of that on Scotland. I think we can safely say that there is no way they would get anything like that level of support in Scotland. Not because the Scots are intrinsically less racist than the English (that would be a racist thing to suggest) but because the Scots have an alternative to the metropolitan political parties which is not available to people in England. So, what if there is a rise in BNP representation in England, but a markedly different result in Scotland? The BNP are ardent Unionists, supporters of Strong Central Government from London, but the more success they have in England, the more marked the difference between Scotland and England becomes. Next year, here in Scotland, we will, hopefully, be having a referendum on independence. It will be interesting to see the Far Right of British politics chafing at its irrelevance to that process. |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 576
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| QT wasn't about arty farty theatre productions - although anybody could be forgiven for thinking that it was just a badly scripted school play in the end. It was about highly sensitive political issues which she quite happily stated she knows nothing about. So why was she on the panel? |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2845
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| landg wrote: | | i did feel sorry for him |
And there will be many other people who felt the same way. And there will be members of the BNP who felt the same way. But there will also be some members of the BNP saying "Hang on a minute........of course he was unfairly treated, and of course we feel sorry for him, but do we want a Leader we have to feel sorry for? What we need is a Strong Leader......."
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