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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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 Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Rinty wrote: | "The UK government, we hear, hase had a policy of unrestricted immigration for the past decade or so. "
No it hasnt, far from it, in fact the last decade has been a period of increasing restrictions re immigration, not the reverse. |
It has for anybody holding an EU passport. That means that aside from any other EU national, any EU country that decides to hold an amnesty of illegals frees all those illegals up to come here too. Happy days, eh?
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Rinty
Jim Baxter is God...........really!!!!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 3601
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| That isnt a change of policy and also involves previous governments. There is no "unrestricted" immigration and it is a fact that this particular government has been the most restrictive of any in recent decades, rather than the opposite as you suggest. |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| I really don't know where you are coming from here, but the UK Government, about ten years ago, opened up the UK to all and sundry with all them having to do was produce a passport issued by an EU country. |
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magister ludi
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 225
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | | Isn't that a parental role? |
I don't disagree, and I don't wish, nor I hope did I imply, that this traditional role of the parent be "contracted out" to teachers, educators, theologians or anyone else who might have an "interest" in my children or anybody elses. NO.
What I am suggesting is that I see merit in providing children the opportunity to explore,develop, define and redefine "right & wrong" for themselves, in the abstract. The reality for many kids is that they have no where to do this; their experience of right and wrong is grounded in the practical realities and implications of the immediacy of reward, punishment, of approval or not, of being valued or not, of being loved or not. |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| all sounds a bit dangerous to me. Imagine your kids go off to school one day and come back for you to discover that what you've said is right and wrong has been redefined! |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:16 am Post subject: |
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In many cases that would be a good thing.
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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magister ludi
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 225
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | | all sounds a bit dangerous to me. Imagine your kids go off to school one day and come back for you to discover that what you've said is right and wrong has been redefined! |
You're winding me up now aren't you?
How could that be dangerous? Or, perhaps the question should be "who would find that dangerous?"
No, I disagree with you entirely......their JOB is to question received wisdom. |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| No, I'm not winding you up. I just think that classes about what's right and wrong isn't something that I think schools should be meddling with. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:51 am Post subject: |
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Rubbish, of course schools should help young people see a sense of moral right and wrong in their actions.
If it isn't being learned at home then it helps to learn it somewhere.
In England, such classes exist and no-one complains.
Do the classes actually help social behaviour. That's a complicated study and not something we can really judge simply by saying : "Yes, they do" or "No, they don't".
Aren't there any teachers on the site who can give their experience on this?
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth! |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | Rubbish, of course schools should help young people see a sense of moral right and wrong in their actions.
If it isn't being learned at home then it helps to learn it somewhere.
In England, such classes exist and no-one complains.
Do the classes actually help social behaviour. That's a complicated study and not something we can really judge simply by saying : "Yes, they do" or "No, they don't".
Aren't there any teachers on the site who can give their experience on this? |
I didn't say that schools play no part at all in it - of course they do as part and parcel of schooling. But it is still fundementally a parental role that shouldn't be undermined by some institutional lesson on what is right and what is wrong. I doubt teachers would be overly keen to take on such a role either. |
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Aventinian
1 Strike
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 5558
Location: Oh, I get about a bit.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Stevie"]Fending off revolutions since the last Jacobite revolultion in 1746 (not hundreds of years). Dictatorship : yes, no dictators true but royalty and not a republic with the resulting class based system.
The institutions are just the same as any other country and Scotland will have those same institutions in place after independence.
| Quote: | | You prefer and defend the status quo as I said, the status quo being Britain, therefore a default Brit Nat by definition. |
Er, no. I prefer torture to genocide, that does not mean I am pro-torture - what you're stating is a simple logical fallacy.
I do not defend the status quo - indeed, I believe there are a lot of problems in our society, politics and constitution that need to be resolved. Nor do I have any particular attachment to the British state, I simply prefer it to a nationalist Scottish state.
| Quote: | | I don't get the comparison between what you'd have in common with Burns and his value as a poet to be studied. I don't guess you have much in common with Shakespeare. |
I am not the one making the argument that schoolchildren should study various writers on the basis of some supposed attachment, your nationalist chums were. Personally, I think a lot of Shakespeare's work is a bit rubbish really. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | | But it is still fundementally a parental role that shouldn't be undermined by some institutional lesson on what is right and what is wrong. I doubt teachers would be overly keen to take on such a role either. |
Of course, still rubbish, because it greatly depends on your parents (their sense of right and wrong can greatly vary; moreover divorced/separated families is becoming the norm.
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | . Personally, I think a lot of Shakespeare's work is a bit rubbish really. |
Well, nuff said.
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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I am not suggesting selling off existing council housing but starting a government funded mortgage system specific to the building of new houses for the population of Scotland.
It's quite a left wing policy in some ways.
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | | Fidget wrote: | | But it is still fundementally a parental role that shouldn't be undermined by some institutional lesson on what is right and what is wrong. I doubt teachers would be overly keen to take on such a role either. |
Of course, still rubbish, because it greatly depends on your parents (their sense of right and wrong can greatly vary; moreover divorced/separated families is becoming the norm. |
No, it is not rubbish. It is for parents to raise their children and instil the fundementals of what is right and wrong in their children. It is not for schools to decide. And, your instant dismissal of what I'm saying as "rubbish" just goes to show exactly what I'm talking about - you being an English teacher and that. Who are you to decide what's right or wrong?
Last edited by Fidget on Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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Parents can be racist, bigoted, horrible, selfish and downright worse than all that put together.
Anyway, schools do teach social responsibility whether you like it or not and that's not a bad thing.
The 'rubbish' is from the fact you're willing to go about something you know nothing about in an education context.
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | Parents can be racist, bigoted, horrible, selfish and downright worse than all that put together.
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And you of course, just couldn't possibly be any of those things.. well.. you being a teacher and all that! Again this is a perfect example of why people like you shouldn't be let loose with classes on what is right or wrong.
| Stevie wrote: | | Anyway, schools do teach social responsibility whether you like it or not and that's not a bad thing. |
Ineed they do, which I acknowledged a few posts back.
Yet again, you reply with a post that doesn't actually say anything at all. |
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mairead
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4295
Location: Argyll, Alba
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Fidget, Can I ask why you always reply in an aggressive manner?
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Aggressive Brit Nat.
Calling me racist, bigoted etc... is out of order however.
Proving to be a tad unpleasant when you scratch the surface.
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth! |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | Aggressive Brit Nat.
Calling me racist, bigoted etc... is out of order however.
Proving to be a tad unpleasant when you scratch the surface. |
Read the post properly and you'll see that in fact, I didn't call you anything - I pointed out that your status as a teacher doesn't mean you couldn't possibly be some or all of the things you rhymed off that parents can be. That is a bit different from actually calling you something.
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