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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1021
Location: Clydesdale
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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 Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| landg wrote: | | a shower of deluded half wits and sums up the stupidity and facism of thursday's proteesters. |
And funny that these leftie extremist groups are funded by the Labour Party and Unions.
If theses folk ain't striking, they are out protesting. 
I see the UAF attacked some more police officers today in Leeds. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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Some years ago some media hack invented the expression "rentamob". It was always complete nonsense. Over the decades from the Sixties to the 2000s I've taken part in many protests, and in a couple of riots, but always as an individual. Nobody "rented" the mobs I was part of, they just happened, spontaneously, because enough folk felt strongly enough about an issue for them to happen. The same is true of the protest at the BBC about the BNP. That protest would have happened anyway, even if there had been no groups or organisations involved at all, and even if nobody at all had "called for" a demonstration. Just the fact that the BNP were going to be on BBC television, and that this was widely known in advance, would have ensured that individuals would have made their way to the BBC studios to protest. A lot of folk did make their way there individually. Yes, there were also some who turned up in groups. Like the group who produced the leaflet which is the subject of this discussion. | Ultra wrote: | | these leftie extremist groups |
Which leftie extremist groups? | Ultra wrote: | | are funded by the Labour Party |
Rubbish. The idea that protesters need "funding" in order to protest is a complete myth, and the idea that the Labour Party would fund folk who blame the Labour Party for creating conditions favourable to the BNP, folk who despise the Labour Party almost as much as they despise the BNP, is just plain daft. |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | Some years ago some media hack invented the expression "rentamob". It was always complete nonsense. Over the decades from the Sixties to the 2000s I've taken part in many protests, and in a couple of riots, but always as an individual. Nobody "rented" the mobs I was part of, they just happened, spontaneously, because enough folk felt strongly enough about an issue for them to happen. The same is true of the protest at the BBC about the BNP. That protest would have happened anyway, even if there had been no groups or organisations involved at all, and even if nobody at all had "called for" a demonstration. Just the fact that the BNP were going to be on BBC television, and that this was widely known in advance, would have ensured that individuals would have made their way to the BBC studios to protest. A lot of folk did make their way there individually. Yes, there were also some who turned up in groups. Like the group who produced the leaflet which is the subject of this discussion. | Ultra wrote: | | these leftie extremist groups |
Which leftie extremist groups? | Ultra wrote: | | are funded by the Labour Party |
Rubbish. The idea that protesters need "funding" in order to protest is a complete myth, and the idea that the Labour Party would fund folk who blame the Labour Party for creating conditions favourable to the BNP, folk who despise the Labour Party almost as much as they despise the BNP, is just plain daft. |
Dave it's a well known fact that UAF get funding from the Labour Party and it was the same groups who were bussing students into television centre for the Question Time protest from several London uni's.
So who pays for the buses Dave?
Just because you weren't 'rented' doesn't mean jack.
It was widely reported in the media too by several different sources about what the UAF were up to and who funded them.
Next you will be telling us that it wasn't these left wing groups who attacked police and put a few of them in hospital? |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | it's a well known fact |
Just repeating something over and over may be enough to turn it into a "well known fact" for the more easily led.
Me, I demand proof.Just one of the groups involved in last Thursday's protests | Ultra wrote: | | get funding from the Labour Party |
Evidence? | Ultra wrote: | | who pays for the buses Dave? |
In my extremely wide experience of taking part in all sorts of protests - anti-war, anti-fascist, anti-poll-tax, etc etc etc - the individual protesters pay for the buses. A couple of days ago I received the following e-mail | Quote: | The People's G20, 7 November 2009, St Andrews
Finance ministers from the twenty richest nations in the world will meet in St Andrews to decide on solutions to the global financial and climate crises. Make sure that they know that business-as-usual is not an option. As the Finance Ministers meet, ensure that they hear your voice, and not just the voices of banks and big business |
And then details of the bus to St Andrews, and the "fare" that each individual protester would be expected to pay for the bus. This is normal practice. It always happens. I'm not sure if I'm going to go on that bus, if I go to that protest I might make my own way there, but, if I do go on the bus, I expect to have to pay. Sometimes, some folk want to go who really don't have any money, and the organisers might let them on the bus anyway (if it's not full up), to keep up the numbers. And what happens then is that they take an extra collection from the rest of the folk on the bus to try to make up any shortfall. |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | it's a well known fact |
Just repeating something over and over may be enough to turn it into a "well known fact" for the more easily led.
Me, I demand proof.Just one of the groups involved in last Thursday's protests | Ultra wrote: | | get funding from the Labour Party |
Evidence? | Ultra wrote: | | who pays for the buses Dave? |
In my extremely wide experience of taking part in all sorts of protests - anti-war, anti-fascist, anti-poll-tax, etc etc etc - the individual protesters pay for the buses. A couple of days ago I received the following e-mail | Quote: | The People's G20, 7 November 2009, St Andrews
Finance ministers from the twenty richest nations in the world will meet in St Andrews to decide on solutions to the global financial and climate crises. Make sure that they know that business-as-usual is not an option. As the Finance Ministers meet, ensure that they hear your voice, and not just the voices of banks and big business |
And then details of the bus to St Andrews, and the "fare" that each individual protester would be expected to pay for the bus. This is normal practice. It always happens. I'm not sure if I'm going to go on that bus, if I go to that protest I might make my own way there, but, if I do go on the bus, I expect to have to pay. Sometimes, some folk want to go who really don't have any money, and the organisers might let them on the bus anyway (if it's not full up), to keep up the numbers. And what happens then is that they take an extra collection from the rest of the folk on the bus to try to make up any shortfall. |
See instead of talking crap Dave, I suggest you go and read a few of the UAF websites which tells you exactly who they are sponsored by and the newsletters they put out explaining where to get picked up by the buses.
The UAF and other left wing groups have not disputed anything I have said in the media.
Pretty much what you do is repeat the same thing over and over again only with multiple cut and pastes for effect. Your comments aren't any more valid than the next persons on here.
It just makes the threads look tedious when really you only have your own experiences to go by and don't take anyone elses comments into consideration.
You would just dispute any evidence provided anyways which is usual for you.
It was well reported in the media that the UAF and other left wing groups are funded by the Labour Party and Unions. It says so on their website under sponsors. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | you only have your own experiences to go by |
My experiences are relevant. For instance, you asked "Who pays for buses to protests?", and I was able to answer that one from my own wide experience of this. | Ultra wrote: | | I suggest you go and read a few of the UAF websites which tells you exactly who they are sponsored by |
I just did. I see from their official website that they are asking people to become members, and that membership of UAF costs £10. I also saw that they have a "Fighting Fund" to which they are asking people to contribute, with facilities for making individual donations on-line. In other words, they get money from their members and from sympathisers. | Ultra wrote: | | It was well reported in the media that the UAF and other left wing groups are funded by the Labour Party and Unions. |
Even if this was true, it would only be true about one of the groups who took part in last Thursday's protests, and not about all of the other groups and individuals who took part. But in any case, I repeat, produce the evidence. You say this was "well reported in the media". In that case, give a website connection to some relevant media article | Ultra wrote: | | It says so on their website under sponsors. |
No it doesn't.
I've just checked. |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | you only have your own experiences to go by |
My experiences are relevant. For instance, you asked "Who pays for buses to protests?", and I was able to answer that one from my own wide experience of this. | Ultra wrote: | | I suggest you go and read a few of the UAF websites which tells you exactly who they are sponsored by |
I just did. I see from their official website that they are asking people to become members, and that membership of UAF costs £10. I also saw that they have a "Fighting Fund" to which they are asking people to contribute, with facilities for making individual donations on-line. In other words, they get money from their members and from sympathisers. | Ultra wrote: | | It was well reported in the media that the UAF and other left wing groups are funded by the Labour Party and Unions. |
Even if this was true, it would only be true about one of the groups who took part in last Thursday's protests, and not about all of the other groups and individuals who took part. But in any case, I repeat, produce the evidence. You say this was "well reported in the media". In that case, give a website connection to some relevant media article | Ultra wrote: | | It says so on their website under sponsors. |
No it doesn't.
I've just checked. |
Most people know, if they have hired a bus, they are paid up front or on the day when hired. So if not very many people turn up the buses still have to be paid for. I am not disputing that people on the day contribute. However, I am talking about UAF demos and clearly on the newsletters there is no mention of people 'paying on the day'. Clearly since you are bringing other demos into the topic you are deliberately trying to take this off topic as you don't like what is being said or create confusion. Please stay on topic.
Oh no Dave.....
Doesn't mention anything about bus payments here does it? Just turn up.
http://www.uaf.org.uk/resources/0907Codnor_coaches_list.pdf
I am sure people on here are quite capable of going and looking at a few left wing websites all by themselves or googling on UAF or AFL.
As for sponsors and supporters.... So it doesn't have a list of MP's and unions on the UAF website?
More bullshit from Dave.....
http://www.uaf.org.uk/aboutUAF.asp?choice=6
http://www.uaf.org.uk/aboutUAF.asp?choice=4
Feel free to cut and paste this 40 times now. I know you have nothing to do now because X Factor is finished and George Galloway isn't on until 10.
The more I read this stuff, the more I wonder who the 'rent a mobs' really are and which groups are inciting violence. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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Ultra, you seem to be sure about so many things...
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | you have nothing to do now because X Factor is finished and George Galloway isn't on until 10 |
Never watch either of them, and you obviously know more about when GG is on than I do, should I take it you're a fan of his? | Ultra wrote: | | sponsors and supporters.... So it doesn't have a list of MP's and unions on the UAF website? |
IRRELEVANT.
When Holebender acted as the main "sponsor" of a petition to the Scottish Parliament, all this meant was he put his name forward publicly as identifying with the petition. It didn't mean he paid any money for it! You claimed that the UAF is | Quote: | | FUNDED by the Labour Party |
and you claimed that | Quote: | | it says so on their website |
That claim wasn't true.
It says no such thing.
They certainly have quite a few individual Labour MPs sponsoring them. I wouldn't want to be associated with that lot, so, despite being anti-fascist, I wouldn't join something like UAF. But the point is, it's not true what YOU said about them being "funded by the Labour Party". | Ultra wrote: | | Please stay on topic |
YOU were the one who asked who pays for buses to protests! I answered this from my own wide and relevant personal experience. | Ultra wrote: | | I am talking about UAF demos |
the topic of this thread is "Leaflet distributed at Thursday night's protest". If you go back to the start of the thread, you will find the leaflet the thread is about, which was produced and distributed by folk who took part in the protest against the BNP. If you read the leaflet, you will see that it is extremely critical of the UAF. Therefore, that is proof there were protesters taking part who were not connected with the UAF, therefore it was not just a "UAF demo". Like I said | Quote: | | Last Thursday night's protests against the BNP would have happened even if there had been no groups or organisations involved at all, and even if nobody had "called for" a demonstration. Just the fact that the BNP were going to be on BBC television,and that this was widely known in advance, would have ensured that individuals would have made their way to the BBC studios to protest. |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | you have nothing to do now because X Factor is finished and George Galloway isn't on until 10 |
Never watch either of them, and you obviously know more about when GG is on than I do, should I take it you're a fan of his? | Ultra wrote: | | sponsors and supporters.... So it doesn't have a list of MP's and unions on the UAF website? |
IRRELEVANT.
When Holebender acted as the main "sponsor" of a petition to the Scottish Parliament, all this meant was he put his name forward publicly as identifying with the petition. It didn't mean he paid any money for it! You claimed that the UAF is | Quote: | | FUNDED by the Labour Party |
and you claimed that | Quote: | | it says so on their website |
That claim wasn't true.
It says no such thing.
They certainly have quite a few individual Labour MPs sponsoring them. I wouldn't want to be associated with that lot, so, despite being anti-fascist, I wouldn't join something like UAF. But the point is, it's not true what YOU said about them being "funded by the Labour Party". | Ultra wrote: | | Please stay on topic |
YOU were the one who asked who pays for buses to protests! I answered this from my own wide and relevant personal experience. | Ultra wrote: | | I am talking about UAF demos |
the topic of this thread is "Leaflet distributed at Thursday night's protest". If you go back to the start of the thread, you will find the leaflet the thread is about, which was produced and distributed by folk who took part in the protest against the BNP. If you read the leaflet, you will see that it is extremely critical of the UAF. Therefore, that is proof there were protesters taking part who were not connected with the UAF, therefore it was not just a "UAF demo". Like I said | Quote: | | Last Thursday night's protests against the BNP would have happened even if there had been no groups or organisations involved at all, and even if nobody had "called for" a demonstration. Just the fact that the BNP were going to be on BBC television,and that this was widely known in advance, would have ensured that individuals would have made their way to the BBC studios to protest. |
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Can't be bothered reading the same thing over and over again. It's irrelevent, pointless, and tedious to the thread.
So you admit now Labour MP's are listed but aren't sponsors or provide funding? Because you don't like them. Doesn't change the facts or evidence does it that they do sponsor and provide funding in the shape of sponsorship? I wonder how many are connected to one of the unions listed?
I bet Holebenders petition cost nothing except time to create and submit on line. Hardly a comparision to hiring a bus, printing leaflets, arranging for a few hundred people to be transported to a demostration. Organizaing a demo.
I haven't said a demostration would not happen. Is this your pathetic attempt to take it off topic or cloud the topic?
I bet if people were not bussed in and there wasn't a on line campaign it would have been far less of a demostration and no police would have been injured by left wing thugs through weight of numbers. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | Because you don't like them. |
I certainly don't like them.
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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In the very first post in this topic, I spoke approvingly about a leaflet which was highly critical of UAF. | Ultra wrote: | | you admit now Labour MP's are listed |
By saying "you admit now" you're trying to make out I denied this before, and have changed my mind. I didn't, and I haven't. But regardless of what I think of that particular group, you claimed they were | Quote: | | FUNDED by the Labour Party |
and you have been completely unable to substantiate that claim. |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | In the very first post in this topic, I spoke approvingly about a leaflet which was highly critical of UAF. | Ultra wrote: | | you admit now Labour MP's are listed |
By saying "you admit now" you're trying to make out I denied this before, and have changed my mind. I didn't, and I haven't. But regardless of what I think of that particular group, you claimed they were | Quote: | | FUNDED by the Labour Party |
and you have been completely unable to substantiate that claim. |
Goodbye. Like I said people can make up their own minds based on the MP's listed and sponsors listed on ther UAF site.
Really pointless spending time going round in circles with someone like you who lies and when presented with evidence you asked for completely dismisses it or tries to twist it to suit your agenda.
You seem quite determined to put a spin on UAF organizing these demos.
So when I go into Glasgow in a few weeks time to check out the SDL/UAF demos, it will be all random flash mob types who just happened to meet up and be carrying printed banners? All bussed in from different areas on Scotland on free buses?
What a fundamentalist figure of fun you are. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:45 am Post subject: |
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Dave does not lie and is seldom wrong (if ever) or inaccurate.
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
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Alasdair
Our Scotland = 2nd Job!
Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 1021
Location: Clydesdale
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | So you admit now Labour MP's are listed but aren't sponsors or provide funding? Because you don't like them. Doesn't change the facts or evidence does it that they do sponsor and provide funding in the shape of sponsorship? I wonder how many are connected to one of the unions listed? |
And yet this doesn't mean that the unions themselves or the Labour Party itself funds the organisation. You really must try and seperate individuals from the organisations they're a member of.
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:37 am Post subject: |
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I can see if your only experience of sponsoring something is paying someone to wear your company logo on his football shirt you'd think it means paying for something.
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | when I go into Glasgow in a few weeks time to check out the SDL/UAF demos, it will be all random flash mob types who just happened to meet up and be carrying printed banners? |
I've been at anti-poll-tax demos, anti-war demos, anti-fascist demos, etc, and for a lot of those demos the Socialist Workers Party produced printed posters. In fact, the only demos I can think of for which the SWP did NOT produce posters were demonstrations in favour of independence for Scotland. But the fact that the SWP will latch on to most protests and produce posters for them doesn't mean these protests are "run" by the SWP. | Ultra wrote: | | You seem quite determined to put a spin on UAF organizing these demos |
You're obsessed with this group UAF. I had never even heard of "UAF" until last week. Of course I assumed there would be groups organising against fascism, and I assumed the SWP would be involved in one of them, but I'd never heard the name "UAF", I'm not a member of UAF, I'm not a member of any political party, and all I have done is to state the truth as I see it. Let's try to imagine, just for a minute, the hypothetical situation where UAF had decided NOT to organise a demonstration. Let's try to imagine, just for a minute, UAF had decided it would be counter-productive to protest. Let's try to imagine they had decided that protesting would only help the BNP. Would that have meant there would have been no protest at the BBC? Of course it wouldn't. A protest at the BBC would have happened anyway. Just the fact that the BNP were going to be on BBC television, and that this was widely known in advance, would have ensured that individuals would have decided they wanted to make a protest. And yes, of course, in practice there would have been groups involved. Like the group (not UAF, in fact highly critical of UAF) who produced the leaflet which is the subject of this discussion. And somebody , or rather some group, would have sought to organise transport to get protesters to the BBC. It just wouldn't have been the UAF. The reason you can't accept that obvious truth is that you are obsessed with trying to "prove" your daft conspiracy theory that protests against the BNP are "funded by the Labour Party". |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2809
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | someone like you who lies |
My name is Dave Coull. That's the truth. Your name is not Ultra. That's the truth. If you weren't making your false allegations while hiding behind a false name, you could be sued for defamation. If you weren't hiding behind a false name, you might have to try to come up with some real evidence of your defamatory statement about a real person, "someone like you who lies". You would be unable to do so. |
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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | someone like you who lies |
My name is Dave Coull. |
Prove it.
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