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Fidget
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 576
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 Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | | The Tories I believe will have an upswing but then they'll suffer as the gimmick of D Cam wears off and the spending cuts arrive. |
They might well do although it's not something I'd personally predict. I do think though that the SNP have been having an upswing that is going to nose dive on them because of their gimmickry. We'll all know much better soon enough. |
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Braveheart
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | You had better produce a source for that statement of yours. My recollection was they said they would publish a white paper within 100 days (which they did) and introduce the legislation to hold the referendum within the lifetime of the parliament. I'm willing to search for evidence to back my recollections, are you? |
They're nationalists.
They say many things.
They don't deliver much though.
Brick-for-brick, anyone...? |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2845
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | if Salmond promised a referendum on Scottish independence and fails to deliver by 2011, that is just another one in a long line of broken promises |
I'm not a member of the SNP, I'm not even a supporter of the SNP, and I will have no hesitation in criticising them where this is justified. I think they were wrong to let Donald Trump have his way in Aberdeenshire, I think they were wrong to select a member of Opus Dei as their candidate in the Glasgow North East election, I think they are wrong about a lot of things. And I also think it would have been better if they had held a referendum in early 2008. But that wasn't what they promised. What they promised was to bring in legislation for a referendum in the lifetime of this parliament. That is, apparently, still Salmond's intention, so whatever OTHER promises he may have broken, so far, at any rate, he hasn't broken THIS one. | Ultra wrote: | | It won't be anyone elses fault but Salmond's as he promised and failed to deliver. |
Alex Salmond leads a MINORITY government. They can't get legislation through if enough MSPs from other parties vote against. As long as Alex tries to get the legislation through, he hasn't broken his promise. | Ultra wrote: | | No point in blaming the other parties |
There is every point in blaming any MSP from any of the other parties who votes against consulting the people of Scotland through a democratic referendum. | Ultra wrote: | | who campaign on a unionist stance |
Campaigning on a unionist stance doesn't rule out consulting the people in a democratic referendum. They could support holding the referendum, and campaign for a unionist position IN that referendum. You can't say they have a manifesto commitment to oppose a referendum, because NONE of the other parties said in their election manifesto in 2007 "if elected, we will vote against holding a referendum". In fact, the messages they have been giving out have been very mixed. Remember "Bring it on!" when Wendy Alexander was Leader of the Scottish Labour MSPs? The Labour Party later changed their position to saying they "would not support a referendum" - but that isn't the same thing as saying they will vote against, if they ABSTAIN they won't have supported a referendum. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1226
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| Braveheart wrote: |
They're nationalists.
They say many things.
They don't deliver much though.
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The SNP has delivered its first government and the Scots are not complaining (well, you are).
You're trying hard though, even you believe what you're saying.
The facts :
The Brits have got: very high unemployment, £170 billion of debt, the longest recession since WWII and MPs ripping off the tax payer through expenses. They are about to make severe spending cuts and you are boasting about the Brit Labour Party.
Nitpicking...
_________________
Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth! |
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Ultra
Confirmed TROLL
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | | Braveheart wrote: |
They're nationalists.
They say many things.
They don't deliver much though.
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The SNP has delivered its first government and the Scots are not complaining (well, you are).
You're trying hard though, even you believe what you're saying.
The facts :
The Brits have got: very high unemployment, £170 billion of debt, the longest recession since WWII and MPs ripping off the tax payer through expenses. They are about to make severe spending cuts and you are boasting about the Brit Labour Party.
Nitpicking... |
What have the SNP delivered Stevie?
The unemployment rate in Scotland is far higher than the rest of the UK.
It was mostly Scottish banks which were bailed out. So this £170 bn debt is shoring up Scottish financial institutions.
You have no idea how many Scots are complaining along with business leaders and councils due to the budget restrictions and cancelled projects imposed by the SNP Government.
But then again Scotland isn't good enough for you and your family to live here is it? Typical ex-pat Scot telling people in Scotland how much they want independence but don't live here.  |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1226
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:10 am Post subject: |
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Unemployment caused by Thatcher destroying our economy and Labour doing bug all since they got into power in Scotland (and in England).
The banks were allowed to do what they wanted, left the state of being simply Scottish banks becoming British banks. Scottish financial institutions they're not.
And without the SNP having pushed there would be no Scottish parliament and no protection against the future Tory cuts.
As for the rest, none of your affair.
_________________
Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth! |
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Ultra
Confirmed TROLL
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | Unemployment caused by Thatcher destroying our economy and Labour doing bug all since they got into power in Scotland (and in England).
The banks were allowed to do what they wanted, left the state of being simply Scottish banks becoming British banks. Scottish financial institutions they're not.
And without the SNP having pushed there would be no Scottish parliament and no protection against the future Tory cuts.
As for the rest, none of your affair. |
Thatcher hasn't been in power for over a decade. The unions had more to do with destroying the economy during those decades. 20 years on history is repeating itself.
The Scottish banks who were bailed out were the Scottish clearing banks. Not British. They made bad decisions and bought failing banks in other countries. Can't really blame a Government for companies making bad decisions. But no doubt the Government will make a profit when the assets are sold.
So was it an SNP UK Government who brought in devolution? No.
As for the rest, if you want to preach to us about Scotland becoming independent at least live in the country and bring up your family here. That way you get a feel for what is happening in the country and the public perception of independence.
Otherwise, you are no better than the plastic Irish and Loyalists who have never set foot in NI or would want to live there but sing songs and romance about the place. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1226
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:35 am Post subject: |
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Where I live is irrelevant and I'm not preaching.
Scottish clearing banks are part of the British system and the Scottish government has no control of them.
Yes, Thatcher and No, the unions have been powerless since Thatcher killed them.
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth! |
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Braveheart
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: |
Scottish clearing banks are part of the British system and the Scottish government has no control of them. |
Yes, but if we had been independent this time last year, the Scottish Government would have had control over them and would have had to pay for their mess...
....which cost the equivalent of one year's budget, and that was just to keep them in existence......
So no money left over for anything else....the bankruptcy of the Scottish banks would bankrupt an independent Scotland (think Iceland).
And the very fact that they are part of the Britsh system saved them and saved us....
And is a powerful argument against independence...... |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2766
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Fidget wrote: | | I've just quoted you something from the SNP's own website, and still you refuse to believe it. |
Really? If it's from the SNP's website you'll be able to post the url so we can all check it, won't you?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1226
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:29 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Braveheart"] | Stevie wrote: |
And the very fact that they are part of the Britsh system saved them and saved us....
And is a powerful argument against independence...... |
A very weak argument indeed because if the Scottish government had had control over them then we would have stopped their shennigans before they created the situation.
Furthermore, The British government has had to borrow its way out of economic disaster to the tune of £170 billion (probably a lot more than that); thus the Scots could borrow to : it is what countries do.
Just to burst your Brit Nat fervour, the British economy is the ONLY major economy still in a state of recession, the longest recession since WWII.
Oh but you knew that already, so you're just beating the Brit Nat drum to whatever tune you wish to play.
_________________
Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth! |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2766
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Braveheart wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | You had better produce a source for that statement of yours. My recollection was they said they would publish a white paper within 100 days (which they did) and introduce the legislation to hold the referendum within the lifetime of the parliament. I'm willing to search for evidence to back my recollections, are you? |
They're nationalists.
They say many things.
They don't deliver much though.
Brick-for-brick, anyone...? |
So, no evidence then? Another made up piece of nonsense.
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Braveheart
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Braveheart wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | | You had better produce a source for that statement of yours. My recollection was they said they would publish a white paper within 100 days (which they did) and introduce the legislation to hold the referendum within the lifetime of the parliament. I'm willing to search for evidence to back my recollections, are you? |
They're nationalists.
They say many things.
They don't deliver much though.
Brick-for-brick, anyone...? |
So, no evidence then? Another made up piece of nonsense. |
try this.... http://www.heraldscotland.com/snp...ferendum-pledge-in-doubt-1.851024
It's from Jan 2007 and it includes | Quote: | The SNP promise to hold a referendum on independence was yesterday called into question, as Alex Salmond opened up room for coalition negotiations after the May election.
The SNP pledge to hold a referendum on independence - as early as this year - was yesterday thrown into doubt...........The SNP leader said the party remained determined to have a referendum within the four-year term, but previously he had promised to move swiftly to legislation for a referendum. Yesterday's change should give him more room to compromise with other potential coalition partners - Liberal Democrats in particular - on when that might be and under what conditions.......
....He had previously said the bill would be introduced within 100 days, and his party has published a bill to illustrate how simple it could be.
However, he dismissed the sample bill yesterday. "There is a world of difference between being an opposition saying this is what we're talking about' and being in government." |
I don't think it could be clearer...he had previously said there would be a bill within 100 days, and then he changed his mind.
And he stil hasn't published the bill.
Over to you. |
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Ultra
Confirmed TROLL
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:35 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Stevie"] | Braveheart wrote: | | Stevie wrote: |
And the very fact that they are part of the Britsh system saved them and saved us....
And is a powerful argument against independence...... |
A very weak argument indeed because if the Scottish government had had control over them then we would have stopped their shennigans before they created the situation.
Furthermore, The British government has had to borrow its way out of economic disaster to the tune of £170 billion (probably a lot more than that); thus the Scots could borrow to : it is what countries do.
Just to burst your Brit Nat fervour, the British economy is the ONLY major economy still in a state of recession, the longest recession since WWII.
Oh but you knew that already, so you're just beating the Brit Nat drum to whatever tune you wish to play. |
So Stevie, how would the Scottish Government have prevented the global economic collapse of the banking sector when other far more powerful and influential countries could not manage it?
Maybe Scotland should just shut themselves off from the global economies.
Who is the we you refer to? The current Scottish Government have blow this years budget and borrowed on the next few years budgets already. Hardly suggests competent or prudent financial management does it?
Countries may well borrow money. However, the UK would have a far higher credit rating and ability to pay the debt back than somewhere like an independent Scotland with around 6 million people and even fewer paying taxes. Imagine what the national debt per person in Scotland would be if they did have to bail out the banks all by themselves. Doesn't bare thinking about.
You don't live here so it's not even your taxes which are funding the bail out is it? |
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Braveheart
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:52 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Stevie"] | Braveheart wrote: | | Stevie wrote: |
And the very fact that they are part of the Britsh system saved them and saved us....
And is a powerful argument against independence...... |
A very weak argument indeed because if the Scottish government had had control over them then we would have stopped their shennigans before they created the situation.
Furthermore, The British government has had to borrow its way out of economic disaster to the tune of £170 billion (probably a lot more than that); thus the Scots could borrow to : it is what countries do.
Just to burst your Brit Nat fervour, the British economy is the ONLY major economy still in a state of recession, the longest recession since WWII.
Oh but you knew that already, so you're just beating the Brit Nat drum to whatever tune you wish to play. |
You're getting desperate Stevie.
this is guff
| Quote: | | if the Scottish government had had control over them then we would have stopped their shennigans before they created the situation. |
because...
... Alex Salmond was up Fred Goodwin's (and all the other "distinguished" Edinburgh bankers') fundament at every opportunity. He would never have criticised or constrained his heros....He played his association with the banking sector for the reflected glory....
...now it's reflected ignominy....
The fact is that the UK Government has vastly more resources than would an independent Scotland. It used those resources to save the British banks, including those based in Scotland.
The failure of the Scottish banks would have bankrupted an independent Scotland
...or we would have had to let the Scottish banks sink... ...
....which would have bankrupted an independent Scotland
This crisis has put paid once and for all to any serious economic argument for independence....
Time to face it. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2766
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Absolute nonsense. The UK did not have the resources to bale out the banks, they borrowed the money to do it. The banks in question were/are international operations; why would independent Scotland feel any obligation to bale out the parts of the business outside Scotland? The fact is the Scottish government would only need to provide insurance for deposits in Scotland and let other parts of the business go to the wall or be sorted out by the governments of the countries in which they operate.
I presume you accept that the UK's unprecedented debts, caused by the world economic recession, put paid once and for all to any economic argument for the UK remaining an independent state?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Ultra
Confirmed TROLL
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | Absolute nonsense. The UK did not have the resources to bale out the banks, they borrowed the money to do it. The banks in question were/are international operations; why would independent Scotland feel any obligation to bale out the parts of the business outside Scotland? The fact is the Scottish government would only need to provide insurance for deposits in Scotland and let other parts of the business go to the wall or be sorted out by the governments of the countries in which they operate.
I presume you accept that the UK's unprecedented debts, caused by the world economic recession, put paid once and for all to any economic argument for the UK remaining an independent state? |
Lloyds TSB Scotland, HBOS, and RBS are owned operated and controlled in Scotland.
So you can't really just let other parts of these global businesses these banks own go to the wall and walk away as the group companies in Scotland would be liable for the debts. The debts and re-capitalizing the balance sheets are what the bank capital injection by the Government was for in return for shares and this enables the other parts of the businesses which are not making a profit to be sold off or wound up.
This is the reason why you are now seeing so much chat in the media about parts of these banking groups being sold off to other companies and paying back the tax payer making a profit for the tax payer in the process.
Why is Iceland now promising to guarantee savers deposits outwith Iceland for Icelandic banks that went bust?
Because if they don't there is nothing to stop other countries Governments freezing Icelands assets, which the UK already did, and if you do not honour your debts companies won't do business with you as you are seen as a bad risk. Your countries credit rating would end up in the toilet at best and any borrowing would be at a far higher rate. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2766
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Lloyds TSB Scotland is just the local subsidiary of Lloyds TSB. All of these banks have shareholders and operations around the world. Putting the word "Scotland" in the name does not make something exclusively or even mainly Scottish.
I see no need to rescue banks, regardless of where they operate or have their main offices. I'm a capitalist, I risk my capital in the markets and if I make bad investments I expect to lose my capital. Why should banks be any different? Why should they make and keep massive profits year after year and them get an unlimited blank cheque from the taxpayers as soon as they mess up?
Banks are private businesses (or they used to be) so a bank's bad debts are not the liabilities of a state. People may well stop doing business with a bust bank, but no-one would have the right to freeze the assets of the country where the banks are based. The UK government acted illegally, and probably did the UK's reputation enormous harm when it attempted to blackmail Iceland in the way it did. The episode certainly did not do the UK's reputation any good.
How come the government now wants to break up the mega banks when only last year they changed the rules to allow Lloyds TSB to swallow HBOS? Do you suppose they have now realised what a mistake it is to allow banks to become "too big to fail"? Or do you think they are just slavishly following the USA's lead, as usual?
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"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Braveheart
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | Absolute nonsense. The UK did not have the resources to bale out the banks, they borrowed the money to do it. The banks in question were/are international operations; why would independent Scotland feel any obligation to bale out the parts of the business outside Scotland? The fact is the Scottish government would only need to provide insurance for deposits in Scotland and let other parts of the business go to the wall or be sorted out by the governments of the countries in which they operate.
I presume you accept that the UK's unprecedented debts, caused by the world economic recession, put paid once and for all to any economic argument for the UK remaining an independent state? |
The UK's debts are not unprecedented. They are predicted to reach approx. 80% of GDP in two/three years time. The UK routinely ran debt levels of that order through the19th and early 20th century.
There are countries operating debts of 100% or more of GDP, it can be done.
The problem is that the Scottsih banks are so large that, if Scotland was independent, it would incur debts of multiples of GDP, just to keep the banks and the economy afloat. And debts of 4, or 5 or 6 times GDP cannot be serviced..... so bankruptcy follows... |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 4304
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Braveheart wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | Absolute nonsense. The UK did not have the resources to bale out the banks, they borrowed the money to do it. The banks in question were/are international operations; why would independent Scotland feel any obligation to bale out the parts of the business outside Scotland? The fact is the Scottish government would only need to provide insurance for deposits in Scotland and let other parts of the business go to the wall or be sorted out by the governments of the countries in which they operate.
I presume you accept that the UK's unprecedented debts, caused by the world economic recession, put paid once and for all to any economic argument for the UK remaining an independent state? |
The UK's debts are not unprecedented. They are predicted to reach approx. 80% of GDP in two/three years time. The UK routinely ran debt levels of that order through the19th and early 20th century.
There are countries operating debts of 100% or more of GDP, it can be done.
The problem is that the Scottsih banks are so large that, if Scotland was independent, it would incur debts of multiples of GDP, just to keep the banks and the economy afloat. And debts of 4, or 5 or 6 times GDP cannot be serviced..... so bankruptcy follows... |
Just out of interest, have you included PFI forecasts in that GDP vs. debt %?!
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