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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
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 Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | [Alex Salmond] confirmed to the Sunday Herald that the Nationalists would aim for a ballot at the end of an SNP-led administration.
He told the paper: "I'm persuaded the key argument is about the SNP building up credibility in government, which is the essential requirement to win an independence referendum.
"The referendum would be close to the end of the four-year term."
It is understood the process for a vote would see a white paper being laid before Holyrood in the first 100 days after this May's parliamentary election, followed by a bill giving the choice of independence, leading to a referendum to be held by 2010.
That was the SNP position going into the 2007 election; a white paper, including a sample draft bill, within 100 days followed by a referendum near the end of the four year term. |
Is that not the point Braveheart and others are making that Salmond has promised a referendum but it's highly unlikely he will be able to deliver this as he does not have the support of the 3 main political parties to get the bill passed through Parliament?
So in effect you have just proved that if Salmond's referendum bill fails, then this would be another failed SNP election promise. |
If we follow your logic, we can look at the manifestos of all the political parties for the 2007 election and call them all failed election promises. Does that make any sense? We could look at the Labour and LibDem manifestos for 1999 and 2003 and call all the pledges they couldn't implement as a result of their coalition agreements as failed election promises. Is that fair, or even sensible?
The SNP position going into the election was to hold a referendum during the life of the parliament. It is still their position and, as long as they make reasonable efforts to fulfill their pledge, it cannot be called a failed promise.
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | [Alex Salmond] confirmed to the Sunday Herald that the Nationalists would aim for a ballot at the end of an SNP-led administration.
He told the paper: "I'm persuaded the key argument is about the SNP building up credibility in government, which is the essential requirement to win an independence referendum.
"The referendum would be close to the end of the four-year term."
It is understood the process for a vote would see a white paper being laid before Holyrood in the first 100 days after this May's parliamentary election, followed by a bill giving the choice of independence, leading to a referendum to be held by 2010.
That was the SNP position going into the 2007 election; a white paper, including a sample draft bill, within 100 days followed by a referendum near the end of the four year term. |
Is that not the point Braveheart and others are making that Salmond has promised a referendum but it's highly unlikely he will be able to deliver this as he does not have the support of the 3 main political parties to get the bill passed through Parliament?
So in effect you have just proved that if Salmond's referendum bill fails, then this would be another failed SNP election promise. |
If we follow your logic, we can look at the manifestos of all the political parties for the 2007 election and call them all failed election promises. Does that make any sense? We could look at the Labour and LibDem manifestos for 1999 and 2003 and call all the pledges they couldn't implement as a result of their coalition agreements as failed election promises. Is that fair, or even sensible?
The SNP position going into the election was to hold a referendum during the life of the parliament. It is still their position and, as long as they make reasonable efforts to fulfill their pledge, it cannot be called a failed promise. |
Salmond promised a referendum on independence, your post not mine, and it's highly unlikely he will succeed. If he doesn't not succeed then he has failed.
I am not looking at Labour or the Lib Dems. We are talking about the SNP Government making election pledges, being elected on those pledges, and failing to deliver.
So please save your deflect and smokescreen tactics. |
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Holebender
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | If these parties don't want independence in the first place, they are unlikely to even want a referendum. |
Opinion polls consistently show a majority of Scotland's voters want a referendum. Is it your position that this majority actually supports independence? Why would anyone oppose a referendum unless they thought they'd lose?
Opinion polls clearly show that many opponents of independence want a referendum to prove their position. You seem to be ignoring these people.
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | I am not looking at Labour or the Lib Dems. We are talking about the SNP Government making election pledges, being elected on those pledges, and failing to deliver. |
Why is it that unionist seem incapable of understanding parliamentary majorities and minority administrations? Is it your position that a minority administration should be allowed to implement its programme in full without requiring a vote in parliament?
Of course the SNP wants to do the things it pledged in its manifesto, but you have to recognise the arithmetic.
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Ultra
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | If these parties don't want independence in the first place, they are unlikely to even want a referendum. |
Opinion polls consistently show a majority of Scotland's voters want a referendum. Is it your position that this majority actually supports independence? Why would anyone oppose a referendum unless they thought they'd lose?
Opinion polls clearly show that many opponents of independence want a referendum to prove their position. You seem to be ignoring these people. |
Opinion polls do not show the majority of Scots want a referendum. That is a lie or spin. They show the majority of voters do not vote for the SNP and prefer the other 3 main political parties who do not back independence as they are unionist parties.
http://www.snp.org/node/15367
Why would unionist parties want a referendum on independence when they do not support independence and see any such vote as a waste of time?
If you vote for a referendum bill then you are creating the opportunity that the referendum may well succeed an Scotland becomes independent.
Also, the reason it is a waste of time is any referendum bill I would imagine would keep being presented before Parliament when the SNP are in a position of strength until independence is achieved. The SNP and independence supporters aren't simply going to disappear regardless of what the majority of Scots want. |
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Aventinian
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Joined: 10 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | Why is it that unionist seem incapable of understanding parliamentary majorities and minority administrations? Is it your position that a minority administration should be allowed to implement its programme in full without requiring a vote in parliament?
Of course the SNP wants to do the things it pledged in its manifesto, but you have to recognise the arithmetic. |
Being a minority administration does not give you carte blanche to sit in Bute House for four years with your thumb up your arse. In actual fact, minority administrations - and let's not forget that the SNP are a minority administration by choice - need to work a hell of a lot harder. They should be negotiating with parties, doing deals, compromising, making proposals acceptable across the party divides. The SNP, however, can't even get a bloody budget through first time and resort to trying to strike bargains with the Greens ten minutes before the vote.
| Holebender wrote: | | Opinion polls consistently show a majority of Scotland's voters want a referendum. Is it your position that this majority actually supports independence? Why would anyone oppose a referendum unless they thought they'd lose? |
I'm sure I've been over this with you before. Needless to say, it has clearly not sunk in despite being blindingly obvious. |
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Holebender
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | Opinion polls do not show the majority of Scots want a referendum. That is a lie or spin. |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8125041.stm 58% support for a referendum
http://www.alba.org.uk/polls/080405.html 65% want a referendum
Care to amend your statement?
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Ultra
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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The poll of 1,010 people, carried out between 22 and 24 June by ICM, found 58% of respondents were in favour of the idea of holding a referendum next year on whether Scotland should become independent, with only 37% against.
When asked "In a referendum on independence for Scotland, how would you vote?", 38% responded that they believed Scotland should become an independent country, with 54% saying they did not believe it should become independent.
Let me amend me statement to the majority of Scots polled would not vote for independence.
Thanks for highlighting this to us Holebender. |
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landg
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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i'm all for a referendum but the snp will never get the bill passed, no referendum, no referendum on independence. the union remains.
happy days. |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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There will be a referendum eventually.
Independence for all true Scots.
Happy Days when we break up the union.
All those not happy with the creation of an independent Scotland can then depart to England with Rangers and Celtic and amuse themselves in whatever way they wish.
Happy Days will come.
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Ultra
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | There will be a referendum eventually.
Independence for all true Scots.
Happy Days when we break up the union.
All those not happy with the creation of an independent Scotland can then depart to England with Rangers and Celtic and amuse themselves in whatever way they wish.
Happy Days will come. |
I am sure there will be. However, whether it will matter by that point will be another thing.
Most countries in Europe are moving towards an European superstate with it's own flag, anthem, currency, and even a president. Along with standardized trade agreements and laws.
So what indeed would be left for either a Scottish Parliament or Westminister to discuss. |
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landg
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | There will be a referendum eventually.
Independence for all true Scots.
Happy Days when we break up the union.
All those not happy with the creation of an independent Scotland can then depart to England with Rangers and Celtic and amuse themselves in whatever way they wish.
Happy Days will come. |
'true scots' yet another pathetic piece of game playing. i'm not a true scot eh? live here, born here, pay taxes, contribute, support scotland, scottish football, vote, donate to scottish charities. nah, i'm not true scot.
you my dear a f***ing idiot.
remind us where are you?
where do you raise your kids?
what to you contribute to scotland these days?
jog on. |
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Stevie
Independentist
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, more exaggeration about Europe from UKIP representative Brit Nats.
You lot are paranoid and European border tariffs may well end up being our only defense against China and India's bottomless supply of cheap goods.
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Alba gu brąth! |
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Ultra
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | Oh, more exaggeration about Europe from UKIP representative Brit Nats.
You lot are paranoid and European border tariffs may well end up being our only defense against China and India's bottomless supply of cheap goods. |
Do you work in manufacturing or importing or exporing goods to China or India Stevie?
Sounds like this is another subject you know little on.
Most major global manufacturing countries already have manufacturing facilities here and the company I work for have already transferred jobs from Scotland to new manufacturing facilities in these places because Scotland is too expensive to manufactur low margin high volume products.
There are plenty of ways to import what is manufactured into the EU and it is still far cheaper for the customer than equivalent EU products. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: |
The poll of 1,010 people, carried out between 22 and 24 June by ICM, found 58% of respondents were in favour of the idea of holding a referendum next year on whether Scotland should become independent, with only 37% against.
When asked "In a referendum on independence for Scotland, how would you vote?", 38% responded that they believed Scotland should become an independent country, with 54% saying they did not believe it should become independent.
Let me amend me statement to the majority of Scots polled would not vote for independence.
Thanks for highlighting this to us Holebender. |
Thank you for admitting you were wrong when you said it was a lie that the majority wants a referendum.
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Ultra
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Ultra wrote: |
The poll of 1,010 people, carried out between 22 and 24 June by ICM, found 58% of respondents were in favour of the idea of holding a referendum next year on whether Scotland should become independent, with only 37% against.
When asked "In a referendum on independence for Scotland, how would you vote?", 38% responded that they believed Scotland should become an independent country, with 54% saying they did not believe it should become independent.
Let me amend me statement to the majority of Scots polled would not vote for independence.
Thanks for highlighting this to us Holebender. |
Thank you for admitting you were wrong when you said it was a lie that the majority wants a referendum. |
At one point in time Scots voters would not have voted for an independence referendum. So it's not a lie is it?
The majority of Scots do not want independence either.
So Holebender what country are you living in currently? Or are you going to continue to avoid the question. |
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Stevie
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Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: |
There are plenty of ways to import what is manufactured into the EU and it is still far cheaper for the customer than equivalent EU products. |
I take it you are okay with having European jobs exported to China and India.
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Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu brąth! |
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Ultra
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | | I take it you are okay with having European jobs exported to China and India. |
If China and India are cheaper to mass produce products then I can understand why companies go down this route. I am sure if India and China become more expensive then the manufacturing will relocate elasewhere. This is what happens in a global economy.
However, Scottish manufacturing can product high margin low volume more technically sophisticated products and create more jobs with higher salaries it balances itself out. |
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Dave Coull
Independentista
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | At one point in time Scots voters would not have voted for an independence referendum. |
When was this mythical "once upon a time"? Have you any evidence that Scots voters were ever opposed to a referendum on independence? |
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Ultra
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Joined: 29 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Coull wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | At one point in time Scots voters would not have voted for an independence referendum. |
When was this mythical "once upon a time"? Have you any evidence that Scots voters were ever opposed to a referendum on independence? |
1978.
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