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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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 Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | Salmond probably said it in order to highlight the unionists' penchant for going on about Scotland being too this or too that to go it alone.
We've heard it a million times from the Brit Nats.
The confusing thing is that despite your using it as some sort of 'argument', you don't seem to realize it's a Brit Nat argument.
Just to let you know, it's not working and the people of Scotland know all about it. |
How come Stevie?
Haven't you read the thread or just have difficult understanding which context I have been using explained many times because it doesn't fit the nationalist agenda?
No Stevie. What you mean is it's far easier to focus on whipping up the 'too' arguments and not answer any of the direct questions put to the nationalists on this thread.
Far easier to concentrate on the same thing and repeat and cut and paste the same blickered thinking time and again.
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | I just think you are an utter hypocrite to describe me as 'too stupid' to debate politics |
| Holebender wrote: | | Ultra, your level of comprehension is far too low for a meaningful political debate. |
I did not say you or anyone else was 'too stupid'. I said you are not contributing to the debate because of a failure to comprehend the subject.
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | Stevie wrote: | Salmond probably said it in order to highlight the unionists' penchant for going on about Scotland being too this or too that to go it alone.
We've heard it a million times from the Brit Nats.
The confusing thing is that despite your using it as some sort of 'argument', you don't seem to realize it's a Brit Nat argument.
Just to let you know, it's not working and the people of Scotland know all about it. |
How come Stevie?
Haven't you read the thread or just have difficult understanding which context I have been using explained many times because it doesn't fit the nationalist agenda?
No Stevie. What you mean is it's far easier to focus on whipping up the 'too' arguments and not answer any of the direct questions put to the nationalists on this thread.
Far easier to concentrate on the same thing and repeat and cut and paste the same blickered thinking time and again. |
This line of argument from the Brit Nats is stupid.
_________________
Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu bràth! |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | I just think you are an utter hypocrite to describe me as 'too stupid' to debate politics |
| Holebender wrote: | | Ultra, your level of comprehension is far too low for a meaningful political debate. |
I did not say you or anyone else was 'too stupid'. I said you are not contributing to the debate because of a failure to comprehend the subject. |
We know what you meant Holebender. No need for you to try and explain away your comments.
You might want to start by answering the umpteen questions that I have put to you in this thread which you have ignored.
That would give the posters on the site an idea of your comprehension on the subject. Mine is quite clear. |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Ultra, why does it matter where people live or work? Is a Scot in Afghanistan any less Scottish than a Scot in Airdrie?
For your information, although it is nobody's business, I live in Scotland. I am in my house in Scotland right now. Should I berate you for spending so much time in England? Is it relevant?
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | Ultra, why does it matter where people live or work? Is a Scot in Afghanistan any less Scottish than a Scot in Airdrie?
For your information, although it is nobody's business, I live in Scotland. I am in my house in Scotland right now. Should I berate you for spending so much time in England? Is it relevant? |
Funny Holebender. A few weeks ago you were somewhere working in the oil industry in Angola...
It is relevant because you spend so much time commenting on Scotland and Scottish oil production but you do not actually work in it yourself. Is the draw of the buck too much? |
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Braveheart
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 193
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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oh dear oh dear...
this
| Quote: | | There was a unionist poster on here recently (sorry, can't remember which one of you it was) who claimed that arguments based on the myths of Scotland being too small, poor, and/or stupid to be independent were exclusively fabricated by nationalists, that unionists would never put forward such ideas. |
on a thread entitled "too small, too poor, too stupid" started by....????
a nationalist!!!!
case over and out....!!!!   
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Neither a nationalist nor a unionist be. http://braveheart-braveheartsblog.blogspot.com/ |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Another one with trouble understanding. The subject of this thread draws attention to the arguments so often used by unionists, and the opening post explains that it is your thread which is making that very argument.
Ultra, have you ever heard of commuting? I just have a longer commute than most people. Who do you think knows more about the Scottish oil industry, a Scot with no connection to the business or a person who works full time in oil & gas?
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | Another one with trouble understanding. The subject of this thread draws attention to the arguments so often used by unionists, and the opening post explains that it is your thread which is making that very argument.
Ultra, have you ever heard of commuting? I just have a longer commute than most people. Who do you think knows more about the Scottish oil industry, a Scot with no connection to the business or a person who works full time in oil & gas? |
Who says I do not have a connection to the business?
I am sure you commute between Angola and Scotland. But not very often. Every couple of months at best? |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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I spend 4 weeks away and then 4 weeks at home. How much time have you spent away from home in the past month? You enjoy telling us about your trips to England, after all.
As I said, what difference does it make? What is your point? Are you one of those newspaper trolls who think only people who spend every day of their lives in Scotland know anything about Scotland?
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Holebender wrote: | I spend 4 weeks away and then 4 weeks at home. How much time have you spent away from home in the past month? You enjoy telling us about your trips to England, after all.
As I said, what difference does it make? What is your point? Are you one of those newspaper trolls who think only people who spend every day of their lives in Scotland know anything about Scotland? |
Like I said I live and work in Scotland completely. A family member passing away brings me to spending so much time in England at the moment.
So why don't you work in the Scottish oil industry, developing new technology, and contribute to this countries economy fully and not somewhere elses?
Do you see the point now?
Ah yes, you are back to trolls now because I am getting closer to the mark and more deflection on to another topic. |
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Ultra
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 652
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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More interesting data on the effect the global Economic Crisis has had to Iceland's and Ireland's credit rating after bailing out the banks....
Iceland’s Banks Flunk at Fitch Ratings
The Icelandic banking system was given the lowest rating possible for a developed state at the international agency Fitch Ratings this week. Iceland and Vietnam are in the same category but Tunisia and Ecuador rank higher than Iceland.
Landsbanki, one of Iceland's three largest banks that collapsed last year. Copyright: Icelandic Photo Agency.
Fitch releases two reports every year, evaluating the stability of the banking systems in different countries. Usually, industrial nations are rated with a B or C. No state was given an A this time but Australia, Canada and Hong Kong earned a B, RÚV reports.
The US and the UK are rated with C. Ireland, Belgium and Iceland rank at the bottom among developed countries; the first two were given a D, while Iceland received the lowest rate possible for a developed country: E.
Before the banking collapse of October 2008, Fitch rated Iceland with a C but the collapse made it plummet down two categories.
The banking systems of countries in the E category are considered extremely weak, a statement from Fitch explained.
A slight increase in pressure can cause a wide-reaching crisis, which burns up the banking system’s equity, and require financial support from the government or shareholders. |
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chicmac
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 459
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | I am not implying anything. I am stating that a unionist poster has a thread running in which he explicitly argues that Scotland is too small and too poor to be independent. It was you (I remember now) who said this sort of thing only ever comes from nationalists and, indeed, you're even trying to say it here.
Just read the thread mentioned at the start of this one and then come back and tell us if you still stand by your claim that unionists never make the very argument put forward in that thread. |
You are implying that Scotland is too small, too poor, and too stupid in this thread by implication. |
Well I don't know what you are implying the implication of H's thread is but you seem to be implying something. Seems he made more a statement of fact to me.
| Ultra wrote: |
Why don't you put up some evidence which proves Scotland isn't too poor, too small, or too stupid to manage it's own affairs when independent? |
While one should generally avoid getting involved in disproving negatives, since the U-community seem to have little else to offer, I will try to deal with all three of their favourite myths. Although approaching from a more positive angle.
First - Scotland is too Small
Many researchers have concluded that a good balance between the benefits of economies of scale/international leverage and the negatives of bureaucratic inertia/corruption comes about at a population of around 5 million. e.g. the Hudson Institute as far back as the 60s predicted countries with populations of about 5 million would fare better on average over the ensuing decades.
However, we do not have to rely on theory and prediction. We can look at National Gross Domestic Product per capita as an indicator of how well countries are actually doing.
It doesn't matter whether you look at IMF, World Bank or CIA data, if you average the population of the top 10 countries for GDP per capita, the average population is just over 5 million, i.e. very close to Scotland's population.
Note this is not an implication it is a verifiable fact and can be checked simply by looking here:
http://tinyurl.com/8hw7x
You may notice that one large country, USA is just outside the top ten on the lists (may even be inside on PPP adjusted lists) but I would point out that the USA is a true federation with each State setting various taxes and fiscal policies of its own, and that the average size of an American State is not far off 5 million either.
Whichever way you look at it, Scotland's size would certainly be no barrier to success.
Second - Scotland is too Poor
Scotland, unlike England, is underpopulated, we grow more than we need whereas England has to import half its food.
Scotland also has the best fishing stocks in Europe.
We also have enormous energy resources, not just oil but in HE, Wind and Wave as well. And that is not including the yet untapped Tidal Stream resource which could generate all of Scotland's electricity requirement using out of sight turbines and North Sea expertise already acquired in the oil sector.
Scotland has a higher percentage of its workforce working in industry than the rest of the UK although still not enough and Scotland has suffered from UK policies stemming from the anti-industrial paradigm which has grown even worse in recent decades down South.
Notable successes are in semiconductor design and manufacturing in stark contrast to failures elsewhere in the UK , electronics production, heavy engineering, software development and production (although now under attack as UK ministers are currently pumping taxpayer's money into the Manchester area in this industry. However they did the same with semiconductors and that didn't work then.)
Tourism is still worth 5 billion a year despite the wind farms.
We still have a virtual monopoly on production of one of the World's favourite spirits.
And note ALL of the above are genuine wealth creating activities.
Yes we do have a significant financial services sector which is not genuinely wealth creating and is therefore at risk in the new real economik where the "all you need is service industry" myth is dead, but we are not nearly as exposed as the UK.
Given Scotland's very fortunate resource rich status in all the key areas, agriculture, fishing, fossil energy, renewable energy, forestry and tourism there really would need to be something awry with the people of Scotland if they were not to be better off than average, which segways neatly into the last myth.
Third - Scots are too Stupid.
The racist nature of this contention is so distasteful it is tempting to ignore it in disgust.
However, I will just point out that the Scottish education system was the first to achieve full literacy. The Scottish Enlightenment lead the way in the age of reason. Scottish emigrants ran large corporations and countries all over the World. Scottish engineers and generals were in demand around the World.
I will not reproduce the huge list of inventions and discoveries made by Scots.
Today, contrary to negative propaganda, Scottish schools education is still near the top in most areas on the OECD comparative tables. The last PISA report I saw indicated only 4 countries statistically higher than Scotland for the overall score. Canada, Finland, Japan and New Zealand.
On the list of the World's top 100 universities, Scotland has five, which at one per million of the population, is easily the largest pro-rata placed nation in the World.
A much larger percentage of Scots attain further education qualifications than the rest of the UK.
Scotland educates about twice its pro-rata share of UK further education students.
National average IQ figures vary depending who does them, how and when they are done but Scotland is usually as high if not higher than the rest of the UK and sometimes as high as Japan (the highest average IQ).
Scotland is not disadvantaged in the stupidity stakes, although when you see those areas which have always had multiple deprivation and have always voted Labour and who will still vote Labour, it does make you wonder sometimes "When will the penny drop? Will it ever drop?".
_________________
"We have catcht hold of Scotland and would keep her fast." - Speaker, HoC, 1713
"No great mischief should they [Scottish soldiers] fall." - Wolfe, Quebec, 1759
Last edited by chicmac on Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:11 am; edited 13 times in total |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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A fine post but I fear the Nit Brats will argue black is white and out is in and... well they have an agenda.
_________________
Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu bràth! |
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Braveheart
Gaining a Reputation
Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 193
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie wrote: | | A fine post but I fear the Nit Brats will argue black is white and out is in and... well they have an agenda. |
You have to laff...
the proposition is...there's this phrase that gets repeated. "Scotland is too small, too poor too stupid to survive on its own"
Nationalists say that unionist use it, but unionists say that they only ever see and hear nationalists introduce it to the debate...
so...
it gets introduced to the debate on this forum....
...on its very own thread, no less...
..by nationalists..!!
how stupid is that?
rather gives te game away! What!
you have to laff!!!
_________________
Neither a nationalist nor a unionist be. http://braveheart-braveheartsblog.blogspot.com/ |
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Stevie
Independentist
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 1179
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Braveheart wrote: |
Nationalists say that unionist use it, but unionists say that they only ever see and hear nationalists introduce it to the debate...
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This is the first time I've ever heard a Brit Nat say that the nationalists introduce a negative campaign tactic against their message into the discussion.
You do talk a lot of nonsense, I just hope you know you're talking nonsense and you're not being serious.
Well, you've probably by now convinced yourself it's true.
_________________
Every man dies, not every man really lives.
Alba gu bràth! |
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Shagpile
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 794
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| chicmac wrote: | | Ultra wrote: | | Holebender wrote: | I am not implying anything. I am stating that a unionist poster has a thread running in which he explicitly argues that Scotland is too small and too poor to be independent. It was you (I remember now) who said this sort of thing only ever comes from nationalists and, indeed, you're even trying to say it here.
Just read the thread mentioned at the start of this one and then come back and tell us if you still stand by your claim that unionists never make the very argument put forward in that thread. |
You are implying that Scotland is too small, too poor, and too stupid in this thread by implication. |
Well I don't know what you are implying the implication of H's thread is but you seem to be implying something. Seems he made more a statement of fact to me.
| Ultra wrote: |
Why don't you put up some evidence which proves Scotland isn't too poor, too small, or too stupid to manage it's own affairs when independent? |
While one should generally avoid getting involved in disproving negatives, since the U-community seem to have little else to offer I will deal with all three of their favourite myths. Although I will approach it from a positive angle.
First - Scotland is too Small
Many researchers have concluded that a good balance between the benefits of economies of scale/international leverage and the negatives of bureaucratic inertia/corruption exists at a population of around 5 million.
e.g. the Hudson Institute as far back as the 60s predicted countries with populations of about 5 million would fare better on average over the ensuing decades.
However, we do not have to rely on theory and prediction. We can look at National Gross Domestic Product per capita as an indicator of how well countries are actually doing.
It doesn't matter whether you look at IMF, World Bank or CIA data, if you average the population of the top 10 countries for GDP per capita, the average population is just over 5 million, i.e. very close to Scotland's population.
Note this is not an implication it is a verifiable fact and can be checked simply by looking here:
http://tinyurl.com/8hw7x
You may notice that one large country, USA is just outside the top ten on the lists (may even be inside on PPP adjusted lists) but I would point out that the USA is a true federation with each State setting various taxes and fiscal policies etc. and that the average size of an American State is not far off 5 million either.
Whichever way you look at it, Scotland's size would certainly be no barrier to success.
Second - Scotland is too Poor
Scotland, unlike England, is underpopulated, we grow more than we need whereas England has to import half its food.
Scotland also has the best fishing stocks in Europe.
We also have enormous energy resources, not just oil but in HE, Wind and Wave as well. And that is not including the yet untapped Tidal Stream resource which could generate all of Scotland's electricity requirement using out of sight turbines and North Sea expertise already acquired in the oil sector.
Scotland has a higher percentage of its workforce working in industry than the rest of the UK although still not enough and Scotland has still suffered from UK policies stemming from the anti-industrial paradigm which has grown even worse in recent decades down South.
Notable successes are in semiconductor design and manufacturing in stark contrast to failures elsewhere in the UK , electronics production, heavy engineering, software development and production (although now under attack as UK ministers are currently pumping taxpayer's money into the Manchester area in this industry. However they did the same with semiconductors and that didn't work then.)
Tourism is still worth 5 billion a year despite the wind farms.
We still have a virtual monopoly on production of one of the World's favourite spirits.
And note ALL of the above are genuine wealth creating activities.
Yes we do have a significant financial services sector which is not genuinely wealth creating and is therefore at risk in the new real economik where the service industry myth is dead, but we are not nearly as exposed as the UK.
Given Scotland's very fortunate resource rich status in all the key areas, agriculture, fishing, fossil energy, renewable energy, forestry and tourism there really would need to be something awry with the people of Scotland if they were not to be better off than average, which segways neatly into the last myth.
Third - Scots are too Stupid.
The racist nature of this contention is so distasteful it is tempting to ignore it in disgust.
However, I will just point out that the Scottish education system was the first to achieve full literacy. The Scottish Enlightenment lead the way in the age of reason. Scottish emigrants ran large corporations and countries all over the World. Scottish engineers and generals were in demand around the World.
I will not reproduce the huge list of inventions and discoveries made by Scots.
Today, contrary to negative propaganda, Scottish schools education is still near the top in most areas on the OECD comparative tables. The last PISA report I saw gave only 4 countries as being statistically higher than Scotland for the overall score. Canada, Finland, Japan and New Zealand.
On the list of the World's top 100 universities, Scotland has five, at one per million of the population easily the largest pro-rata placed nation in the World.
A much larger percentage of Scots attain further education qualifications than the rest of the UK.
Scotland educates about twice its pro-rata share of UK further education students.
National average IQ figures vary depending who does them, how and when they are done but Scotland is usually as high if not higher than the rest of the UK and sometimes as high as Japan (the highest average IQ).
Scotland is not disadvantaged in the stupidity stakes, although when you see those areas which have always had multiple deprivation and have always voted Labour and who will still vote Labour, it does make you wonder sometimes "When will the penny drop? Will it ever drop?". |
Good example of why you were missed. |
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Shagpile
This is Ma' Life!
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 794
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Braveheart wrote: | You have to laff...
the proposition is...there's this phrase that gets repeated. "Scotland is too small, too poor too stupid to survive on its own"
Nationalists say that unionist use it, but unionists say that they only ever see and hear nationalists introduce it to the debate...
so...
it gets introduced to the debate on this forum....
...on its very own thread, no less...
..by nationalists..!!
how stupid is that?
rather gives te game away! What!
you have to laff!!! |
Emotionly, laughing and crying are equally valid in any given situation. You can find yourself laughing in times of great uncertainty, and you can cry with happiness.
The reason you 'laff' at a quality post is due to your uncertainty, the actual post you made is testament to that. Panic in the extreme is manifest all over it.
Yet it validates why such an unthought-through post is a reason why YOUR posts will not be missed Cooncilor.
Basically you're a mince poster. |
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chicmac
Standing in a Council Ward
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 459
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Braveheart wrote: | | Stevie wrote: | | A fine post but I fear the Nit Brats will argue black is white and out is in and... well they have an agenda. |
You have to laff...
the proposition is...there's this phrase that gets repeated. "Scotland is too small, too poor too stupid to survive on its own"
Nationalists say that unionist use it, but unionists say that they only ever see and hear nationalists introduce it to the debate...
so...
it gets introduced to the debate on this forum....
...on its very own thread, no less...
..by nationalists..!!
how stupid is that?
rather gives te game away! What!
you have to laff!!! |
Excuse me, I simply responded to a challenge from I presume, a unionist, to give evidence against the too small/too poor/too stupid mythos, which I did.
No strawman there.
_________________
"We have catcht hold of Scotland and would keep her fast." - Speaker, HoC, 1713
"No great mischief should they [Scottish soldiers] fall." - Wolfe, Quebec, 1759 |
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Holebender
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 2752
Location: Here or There
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultra wrote: | | So why don't you work in the Scottish oil industry, developing new technology, and contribute to this countries economy fully and not somewhere elses? |
Because I am not parochial.
I am a citizen of the world and the world is my workplace. I work in an international industry and I work all over the world, including in Scotland, as and when required.
_________________
"My instinct is to agree with your opinion of his verse, but I've never so much as glanced at it." - agentmancuso |
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