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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
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Location: Dùn Eideann
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 Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Good luck to St Paulia, that's great. I've said that I don't have a problem with Irish republicanism. And of course supporting Irish republicanism is not sectarian. As Morph says though, songs glorifying the IRA are a bit different and it is understandable why a lot of folk have a problem with them.
The issue about being a Scots club... I know there are plenty Celtic fans that also support Scots republicanism as well, it is just not very visible, and I find that a bit strange. It seems that in addition to Ireland, plenty other causes are represented such as Palistine, Basque country etc, but the cause closest to home is not.
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
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Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:04 am Post subject: j |
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| Quote: | | So while Rangers are singing horrible sectarian songs, those sung at celtic gloryfing the IRa and song which are used to provoke a Rangers response are just innocent. Parkhead take off the green tinted glasses |
Of course you are right in a way but you miss rfbs point.
The home support at Parkhead have now eradicated the songs deemed sectarian. The perception by many people in this country is that the continued displays of Irishness and folk songs such as the fields of athenry are actually sectarian.
Celtic supporters are still engaged in songs that could be called sectarian and the (embarrassing) changing of lyrics in perfectly non-sectarian songs to render them sectarian. But this only happens at away games much to the annoyance of other SPL teams. For that reason fans of Killie Motherwell and others only see a Celtic support that is openly pro-IRA and anti-british. Rfb would argue that even this support is not sectarian as such and he would have a point but that is another debate (or at least another point in this debate that I would rather not go into in this post).
As a young man at Celtic Park I used to seethe when the supporters changed a line in one song from "dublin, belfast, cork and donegal" to "soon there will be no protestants at all".
But there remains a problem in our country of anti-irishness, anti-cathloicism and sometimes a combination of both. Because of this, anything done by Celtic supporters that carries any sort of Irish symbolism is seen as sectarian. It would be sad if Celtic fans were forced to abandon their clubs identity to appease bigots.
There is a difference with Rangers in that some of their identity is not so much their Scottishness or their Britishness as their hatred of irish-catholics. They may be changing and I'm not singling them out but it is too simple to use the "ones as bad as the other" argument. |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 3793
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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The reason I hate these vile 'football' teams is that I see busloads of 'fans' making the trip to either Ibrox or Parkhead from my home town. That's in addition to the thousands who walk around with the shirts on but haven't even stepped inside either stadium. It sickens me to think that football teams around the country are dying because people would rather be part af a 'gang culture' which encourages hatred amongst two sets of supporters which stems from religious bigotry.
This is a Scottish disease and the one thing that I am particularly ashamed about in this country. I'd love to see the SFA take a stance on all this rubbish but while old fim fans keep paying the SFAs shilling it won't happen - it'll be brushed under the carpet.
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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exactly rinty he has went for the lazy option of the oh there all as bad as each other approach when the vast, vast majority of celtic songs are non sectarian. if you want to criticise celtic fans for singing political songs in support of irish republicanism then fine we can debate that issue but at least be clear what you are complaining about.
i know the song you mean rinty and i have cringed the few times i have heard morons add that line into the song, particularly as it runs totally contrary to the point the song is making about unification with protestants and catholics in ireland.
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"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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Morph
I really have nothing else to do!!!
Joined: 19 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Im not accussing celtic of sectarian songs but songs which provoke others. It is a fact that the fields of athenry will anger rangers fans just as much as their stupid 'king billies on the wall' type stuff will celtic fans. Its not a lazy point that they are bad as each other it is a true point both use each other to gain ground. And as i said where does the politics of fit into a football stadium? either Ibrox or Parkhead? I understand a desire by Irish decendants or people who feel an affiliation to express this, but why at the football? If you look at Liverpool/Everton, Man Utd/Man city this is not the same and they are traditional Catholic/Protestant divisions with everton and Man city being the protestant and the former catholic. I dont beliveve the reasons for thier rivallry is anything more than inhabitting the same city not this nonsense that Rangers and Celtic are involved in.
The lazy arguement in my oppinion is not 'there as bad as each other' but more' its them not us'
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2598
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject: j |
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| Quote: | | The reason I hate these vile 'football' teams is that I see busloads of 'fans' making the trip to either Ibrox or Parkhead from my home town. That's in addition to the thousands who walk around with the shirts on but haven't even stepped inside either stadium. It sickens me to think that football teams around the country are dying because people would rather be part af a 'gang culture' which encourages hatred amongst two sets of supporters which stems from religious bigotry. |
I am a Celtic supporter, I dont travel to games as often as I used to from my Ayrshire town but I'm still a supporter when i can be. I actually fell in love with Celtic on a rainy midweek in Kilmarnock in 1969 or 1970. My father (a killie supporter) took young rinty and my brother to see Killie play Celtic in a testimonial for Frank Beattie. This was my first ever celtic match and was also the debut of a certain Kenny Dalglish. Celtic won 7-2 if my memory serves me right and the King scored 5 (yes 5!) on his debut. From then on I became a supporter and am still in love with them today. I dont support Celtic to join a "gang" or be part of their culture, although I do share the culture of much of Celtics support.
My dad and brother are Killie fans, both my grandfathers were Rangers supporters, so its not a cultural or something that has been bred into me.
This is the story of many celtic fans and to generalise that all supporters of celtic do so for tribal reasons is wrong. It is also a bit dubious to argue against tribalism by suggesting that we all should support our local tribe.
When I do go to games I travel in a car with 3 others, two are from Glasgow, one from Ireland originally and live in Ayrshire. If a busload of "expat" Killie fans left Edinburgh for Rugby Park would they be responsible for hibs being skint?
Celtic FC have never had a sectarian policy and in most countries "irish" teams or "scots" teams are happily accepted for what they are. People forget that Rangers had for a century a policy that excluded catholics and that is the origins of the division between the teams, the division in society already existed before either of the teams.
If the SFA dared to start to tell Celtic fans what flags and songs they should display they had better have an extremely good lawyer to point out what parts are offensive, sectarian or breach any SFA rules. |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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the sfa in the 50's actually tried to ban celtic from the league unless they took the tricolour down.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| I know it's a bit different on the west coast. But I'm still not totally convinced about the anti-Irish Catholic problem today. I would think the majority of Hibs fans are nominally protestant with little direct Irish descent. None of whom have a problem supporting a club called Hibernian with a Harp on the logo and "Erin go brath" as a motto or the Irish flags that are sometimes flown at matches. |
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Morph
I really have nothing else to do!!!
Joined: 19 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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see
IMO the harp and the culture behind it isnt the problem its the usage by SOME fans as a method of intimidation and probl;em causing. Not only found at celtic park but ibrox also,
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
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Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:39 pm Post subject: g |
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| Quote: | | IMO the harp and the culture behind it isnt the problem its the usage by SOME fans as a method of intimidation and probl;em causing. Not only found at celtic park but ibrox also |
Thats true but sometimes the symbolism immediately intimidates the opposition due to the fact that they are anti-irish. Would we stop black people from going in a shopping centre because there is a racist shopkeeper who is intimidated by him?
I know where you are coming from morph but it is far more complicated than most people make out. When I hear scots people say things like "if you want to flay a tricolour why dont you move to ireland" I really cringe.
If they took the same attitude about other groups they would be slaughtered but we are supposed to believe that celtic fans bring it on themselves by flaunting their culture. |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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slg there have been a few studies which have shown that there is discrimination today, i have seen hard copies of this and one academic actually did a conference at my university on the subject, its difficult to find a web based link though.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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'their culture' is a weird way to look at it seeing as though most of those who celebrate it are 4th, 5th or even 6th generation Irish. Their ancestors have contributed as much to the culture of modern Scotland as the Scots around then did. This IS their culture.
Instead they prefer to celebrate an idealistic view of a country that moved out of that territory 20-30 years ago. What culture are they celebrating - because it certainly isn't Irish?
Ireland is a modern nation that is nothing like the Socialist Republican Catholic Mecca that many Celtic fans' would like to think it is. Ireland and its people are now further politically right than the people of Scotland - and are comfortable with it. This shows the effect that this 'Irish community' have had on Scotland and that the culture that they celebrate is alive here and now, just not in Ireland.
It seems the modern Irish who live on the Emerald Isle are less 'Irish' than those who claim to celebrate their 'culture' in the SW of Scotland.
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Possibly the funniest site in the world, 'The Daily Mash' - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/ |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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rs you have no right to tell people what their culture is so dont attempt to do it. secondly i dont have any idealistic view of ireland, i have a view of what my ideal ireland would be. thirdly i certainly dont want to see it as any kind of catholic mecca i am firmly against the catholic church. I like irish culture i like its literature, i like its music, i am interested in its politics and finally irish women that doesnt mean i dont see myself as scottish.....one scotland many cultures?
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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parkhead show me where I am telling people what their culture is?
I am simply pointing out that the culture that a lot of these people collectively celebrate is a long way away from Modern ROI. Pointing out a flaw or a misbelief is racist or bigoted now is it? This group of people are as Irish as me - My great grandfather was from Donegal. You seem to be taking this very personally - I am not talking about you specifically.
Frankly I think they celebrate the wrong type of nationalism, a type that glorifies terrorism and excludes by nature - and I have every right to say so.
One Scotland many cultures - indeed.
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"Every single person on this planet is unique. Just like everyone else..." - Random Guy in Edinburgh Pub
Possibly the funniest site in the world, 'The Daily Mash' - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/ |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| How about one Ulster - two cultures. |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2598
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:08 pm Post subject: m |
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| Quote: | | parkhead show me where I am telling people what their culture is? |
| Quote: | | Instead they prefer to celebrate an idealistic view of a country that moved out of that territory 20-30 years ago. What culture are they celebrating - because it certainly isn't Irish? |
Its the culture of scots people who have close links to Ireland. The Glasgow Irish are still closely connected with Donegal, in many families current generations. Many people of Irish descent in this country still have relatives there and still visit regularly. BUT they dont display the culture of Ireland as such, their culture (and their teams) is of scots irish. People whose history is wrapped up in Ireland and the political history of Ireland is part of how they got here in the first place.
Some of them, probably not as many as fans of other teams think, are still involved in the politics of Ireland, many people I know from other cultures in Scotland do the same. I know socialists that still pay membership to the Communist parties in Iraq and Pakistan, I know many muslim people who see palestine as the most important political question but are not any less part of scotland because of it.
| Quote: | | Ireland is a modern nation that is nothing like the Socialist Republican Catholic Mecca that many Celtic fans' would like to think it is. |
I dont think they do. For a start the socialists and republicans have very little to do with the catholics in essence. That radical socialists emerged from a community that was deliberately discriminated against by the laws of the state they lived in is no coincidence. In that way they are one and the same but the Catholic solution to the problem is a world away from the socialist or republican solution.
That young people of Irish descent identify with the radicals is no different from what we witness in other communities.
In Canada many people of scots descent are fiercely in favour of independence and many I meet get drunk and romanticise past wars and fantasise about Scottish armed struggle against the English. Their perceptions may be flawed, they may even sound ridiculous but it doesnt make them "vile" or any less Canadian. |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:32 am Post subject: |
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[quote="rs_azzuri"]This IS their culture.
quote]
there.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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Morph
I really have nothing else to do!!!
Joined: 19 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:34 am Post subject: |
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Lets stop being pedantic eh?
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| SLG wrote: | | How about one Ulster - two cultures. |
i favour eire nua as the way foward slg this would see ireland unified using a federal system of government with ulster based on the original nine counties. under this system unionists would be a substantial minorty and well represented at federal level. Republicans do not want to destroy unionist culture, we disagree with their right to split the island to ensure a manufactured mandate and the gross inequalities which arose from their domination from the 1920's onwards.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
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Location: Dùn Eideann
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Makes sense to me parkhead. I was just taking the piss out of the 'one scotland' branding though. |
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