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Leathlaobhair
No Longer a Wean
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 94
Location: Every day above ground is a good day
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 Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| RBK wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: | | well you did post an "academic" report that may as well have been written with a crayon then looked on smugly as if it actually proved anything. |
Derision Is The Refuge Of Threatened Ignorance   |
I'm sorry you can do nothing but spout the same parable and then go back to sucking your thumb, convincing yourself that nothing possibly could be wrong about unionism...
| RBK wrote: |
At Drumcree the O.O. go down to the barrier at Christmas and gather round,have a religious service and sing carols. But there's not a T.V. camera in sight.
Bet if there was another riot at the barrier. The T.V. crews would be there in their hundreds. |
I honestly could care less what the O.O. does if they're not hurting people, although that is pretty amazing when it isn't happening. They can parade down Unionist neighbourhoods all they want as far as I'm concerned, it's only when they try to provoke Catholics I have something to say.
And of course that's when the media cares, the media only cares about things that make people think about their own safety. You only would ever see something like that on a slow news day, unfortunately
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Those must have all been important to me once. What I am now grew from that. A former self is a fool, an insufferable ass, but he's still human, you'd no more turn him out than you'd turn out any kind of cripple, would you?
-Thomas Pynchon |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4413
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| Leathlaobhair wrote: | | I'm sorry you can do nothing but spout the same parable and then go back to sucking your thumb, convincing yourself that nothing possibly could be wrong about unionism... |
There is literally nothing wrong with Unionism. That is not to say I agree with the actions of every British Government since 1707...
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I honestly could care less what the O.O. does if they're not hurting people, although that is pretty amazing when it isn't happening. They can parade down Unionist neighbourhoods all they want as far as I'm concerned, it's only when they try to provoke Catholics I have something to say. |
I don't think anyone has a right to say who can and cannot walk down a public street. |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 3792
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:50 am Post subject: |
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........an organised parade is a little different from just walking down a street Aventinian.
Over here some 'parades' are designed to deliberately antagonise the communities and towns/villages they march through.
Some parades are held in towns/villages where the population is exclusively (really - almost 100%) Catholic. The people that participate in said parades are bussed in from 30-40 miles away.
This is petty and is designed to create divisions - it is because of these idiots that the parades commission was set up - and rightly so.
_________________
"Every single person on this planet is unique. Just like everyone else..." - Random Guy in Edinburgh Pub
Possibly the funniest site in the world, 'The Daily Mash' - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/ |
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RBK
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 260
Location: Ulster
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:55 am Post subject: |
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The Hibernians walked past the last Unionist estate left on the west bank of the Foyle. No one annoyed them they proceeded on their way unmolested. The way things should be.
Many of the contenious areas,are areas that once were Unionist,but are no longer so. This is were the trouble usually occurs. These processions have walked in these areas for decades and decades. The Unionist population had to get out in the end,so the lesson is learned.
Gerry Adams himself has said that these 'Concerned Residents' groups just didn't happened. They were organised, to oppose any Unionist parade which still insisted in walking through areas where they once had lived.
Gerard Rice didn't even live on the Ormeau Road. But travelled from the other side of Belfast to the Ormeau Road in order to be 'offended' There was even talk of him going to Canada to view the 12th parade there and be 'offended' 
But its very interesting the way on this thread the spotlight has been turned on to Orange parades. While it started of about the riots in Dublin.
Irish Republicans are very good at that manoeuvre. I have to hand it to them. There's no doubt they are brillant at it. Unionists are hopeless,they haven't a clue. |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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the unionist population had to get out? nothing to do with the increase in the nationalist population due to its substantially higher birth rate then? Also you will no doubt have missed that fact that in derry city they have managed to reach agreement with nationalists there regarding marches despite the city being a majority nationalist city. The ancient order of hibernians are also a joke organisation and i dont know one sin gle person in ireland who is a member, the vast vast majority of republicans treat them with as much contempt as they do with the orange order. Surelly as a church organisation the oo should be doing a smuch to promote peace as possible rather than organising contentious marches, oh and remember the scenes of triumphalism when the garvaghy road march was allowed to pass? if those escaped your attention you may want to look into the five gestures which were being amde by members of the orange order during a procession past a nationalist area in belfast where 5 nationlaists were murdered in a sean graeme bookmakers.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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RBK
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 260
Location: Ulster
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | the unionist population had to get out? nothing to do with the increase in the nationalist population due to its substantially higher birth rate then? Also you will no doubt have missed that fact that in derry city they have managed to reach agreement with nationalists there regarding marches despite the city being a majority nationalist city. The ancient order of hibernians are also a joke organisation and i dont know one sin gle person in ireland who is a member, the vast vast majority of republicans treat them with as much contempt as they do with the orange order. Surelly as a church organisation the oo should be doing a smuch to promote peace as possible rather than organising contentious marches, oh and remember the scenes of triumphalism when the garvaghy road march was allowed to pass? if those escaped your attention you may want to look into the five gestures which were being amde by members of the orange order during a procession past a nationalist area in belfast where 5 nationlaists were murdered in a sean graeme bookmakers. |
Did Nationalists/Republicans not jeer and spit at the body of a British soldier who threw himself over a bomb in order to save Nationalist civilians who were in the police station.
Remember too the chant. ''our thirteen were not forgotten we got eighteen plus Mountbatten''
Come off it...those on the Unionist side have'nt got a monoply on such things.
Republicans/Nationalists can gloat like ghouls too. |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| RBK wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: | | the unionist population had to get out? nothing to do with the increase in the nationalist population due to its substantially higher birth rate then? Also you will no doubt have missed that fact that in derry city they have managed to reach agreement with nationalists there regarding marches despite the city being a majority nationalist city. The ancient order of hibernians are also a joke organisation and i dont know one sin gle person in ireland who is a member, the vast vast majority of republicans treat them with as much contempt as they do with the orange order. Surelly as a church organisation the oo should be doing a smuch to promote peace as possible rather than organising contentious marches, oh and remember the scenes of triumphalism when the garvaghy road march was allowed to pass? if those escaped your attention you may want to look into the five gestures which were being amde by members of the orange order during a procession past a nationalist area in belfast where 5 nationlaists were murdered in a sean graeme bookmakers. |
Did Nationalists/Republicans not jeer and spit at the body of a British soldier who threw himself over a bomb in order to save Nationalist civilians who were in the police station.
you have lost me with that one, what incident was this?
Remember too the chant. ''our thirteen were not forgotten we got eighteen plus Mountbatten''
i have not heard anyone shout that chant nor have i ever seen any record of it can you provide real evidence of it?
Come off it...those on the Unionist side have'nt got a monoply on such things.
Republicans/Nationalists can gloat like ghouls too. |
_________________
"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4413
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| rs_azzuri wrote: | | ........an organised parade is a little different from just walking down a street Aventinian. |
Not in any real sense. It's still people using their right to use a public street.
| Quote: |
Over here some 'parades' are designed to deliberately antagonise the communities and towns/villages they march through. |
In a democratic society you have no right not to be offended. I don't like the number of socialists that march about the centre of Glasgow, but I'd defend their right to do it.
The people who complain are usually as bad as the antagonists themselves - just spoutingt the same tribal nonsense over and over. Wasn't it the Garvachy Road (excuse the spelling) "Residents' Committee" that actually had no members who had houses actually facing onto the proposed marching route...
As I say, same old tribal idiots on both sides just seeking a way to one-up each other.
| Quote: | | This is petty and is designed to create divisions - it is because of these idiots that the parades commission was set up - and rightly so. |
Responding to pettiness with not only pettiness, but oppression, will solve nothing. |
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the bard of keppoch
Nationalist
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:26 am Post subject: |
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aventinian lets here suggestions on how you would return the North into a better and safer place for people to live
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" i was no chief and never had been,but because i was more wronged than other's,this honour was conferred upon me,and i resolved to prove worthy of the trust " GERONIMO |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2598
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:56 am Post subject: m |
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| Quote: | | Gerry Adams himself has said that these 'Concerned Residents' groups just didn't happened. They were organised, to oppose any Unionist parade which still insisted in walking through areas where they once had lived. |
But surely RBK an orange parade is not a "unionist" march. The Orange Order is a religious organisation whereas unionism is a political opinion on how best to govern Northern Ireland/the UK.
| Quote: | | But its very interesting the way on this thread the spotlight has been turned on to Orange parades. While it started of about the riots in Dublin. |
The thread seemlessly moved onto the subject of contentious marches/parades as that was the subject matter. The pivotal turn in the thread was the question of the Orange Order and Love Ulsters involvement in the Dublin march. You should scroll back, its no mystery and a natural path for the thread to take.
| Quote: | | Irish Republicans are very good at that manoeuvre. I have to hand it to them. There's no doubt they are brillant at it. |
Devious, scheming, untrustworthy race of people eh? |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4413
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| the bard of keppoch wrote: | | aventinian lets here suggestions on how you would return the North into a better and safer place for people to live |
Pretty much the same way I'd do it for every other part of the world - government at its most efficient level, co-operation across borders, individual liberty, small government, effective policing. |
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RBK
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 260
Location: Ulster
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: m |
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| Rinty wrote: | | Quote: | | Gerry Adams himself has said that these 'Concerned Residents' groups just didn't happened. They were organised, to oppose any Unionist parade which still insisted in walking through areas where they once had lived. |
But surely RBK an orange parade is not a "unionist" march. The Orange Order is a religious organisation whereas unionism is a political opinion on how best to govern Northern Ireland/the UK.
| Quote: | | But its very interesting the way on this thread the spotlight has been turned on to Orange parades. While it started of about the riots in Dublin. |
The thread seemlessly moved onto the subject of contentious marches/parades as that was the subject matter. The pivotal turn in the thread was the question of the Orange Order and Love Ulsters involvement in the Dublin march. You should scroll back, its no mystery and a natural path for the thread to take.
| Quote: | | Irish Republicans are very good at that manoeuvre. I have to hand it to them. There's no doubt they are brillant at it. |
Devious, scheming, untrustworthy race of people eh? |
Regarding the Unionist bit Rinty I take your point. Unionist doesnt mean Orange and vice-versa. Its only that in the cauldron that is Ulster, its hard sometimes to pick a word that somebody is not gonna take exception to. Iv'e already been 'pulled' for using the dreaded P********* word. There are that many permutations in this place[Ulster] of a description for a group of people.....its like walking on egg-shells sometimes. I'm well aware that some R.C. people would be unionist and some P. people would be nationalists. I think we all agree on that and if a term is used about a group I [speaking for myself] am usually referring to majority's within that group. As I said on this site too....its like walking on egg-shells.
I agree too about the thread. I have to admit that threads have a habit of doing that......going off the starting point. I have been guilty of it myself.
Devious is to strong a word maybe. But I do think that, shall we say they are more astute than... whatever word we are allowed to use[this is crazy]
Maybe its the Scots in the Ulster-Scots but it does seem in temperment we are a different people. More 'up front' if you like. If there are two sets of bigots in Ulster....then ours is the more noticeable variety. 
We make a rod for our own back. But I guess its just the way we are.  |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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i remember looking at the orange orders official website at the time and it carried pro unionist and anti sinn fein material, the organisation most definetely has political links, they even hire loyalist bands.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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azzuri
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 3792
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Aventinian wrote: |
Pretty much the same way I'd do it for every other part of the world - government at its most efficient level, co-operation across borders, individual liberty, small government, effective policing. |
I nearly choked on my coffee there. 'Co-operation across borders'- that's been tried for decades now and if anything has only had a negative effect. Whether it's the British or Irish government involved - someone is not happy. When both are involved it seems to leave everyone unhappy - I've yet to hear anyone over here who comes out in serious support of the Belfast Agreement.
The best thing is to leave Northern Ireland to it - they are on the right track but it will take time as with anything else. Saying that, Globalisation is probably the best thing that could happen over here.
Increased immigration and travel will help speed up the process no end.
_________________
"Every single person on this planet is unique. Just like everyone else..." - Random Guy in Edinburgh Pub
Possibly the funniest site in the world, 'The Daily Mash' - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/ |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2598
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject: g |
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| Quote: | | I've yet to hear anyone over here who comes out in serious support of the Belfast Agreement. |
The majority of people voted for it yet the government decided in it's wisdom not to implement it. If the GFA had ever been carried out I would accept the criticism of it. But without a devolved parliament the GFA had no chance of succeeding. The whole thing got sidetracked on issues that were not part of the agreement, now we have the IMO, again not a part of the agreement, dictating the shots rather than the elected representatives of the people in their own parliament. |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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exactly rinty, the gfa states that all parties involved should so all they can to ensure that violence comes to an end it doesnt mention decommsissioning of the pira as a prerequisite to the assembly being in place. events such as the bank robbery have also been used as a stick to beat republicans depsite their being no convictions of pira members, whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty it seems that it has been replaced once again with innocent until proven irish.
unionists use these things only as a way to stall the peace process as many of them will never accept power sharing with nationalists, in 1973 the Ulster Unionist Council voted to share power with nationalists by a majority of only ten, over three hundred who voted were against it from the outset, this issue was then sidetracked by the anger unionists had with the council of Ireland agreed during the Sunningdale agreement.
men like paisley will need to learn that things arent going back to the days when they had uncontested dominance and they will have to share power with nationalists, its time the british government stood up to a man who wasnt so against paramilitaries that he was ashamed to work with them during the Ulster Workers council strike which ended the sunningdale agreement.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4413
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| rs_azzuri wrote: | | I nearly choked on my coffee there. 'Co-operation across borders'- that's been tried for decades now and if anything has only had a negative effect. Whether it's the British or Irish government involved - someone is not happy. When both are involved it seems to leave everyone unhappy - I've yet to hear anyone over here who comes out in serious support of the Belfast Agreement. |
You're taking a very restricted viewpoint. I've yet to hear one complaint about the Council of the Isles being in existence. Equally, the EU has overarched politics in both the UK and Ireland for a long time. That is the sort of co-operation I'm talking about, not muddled meddling in the affairs of another.
The Belfast Agreement was and is flawed. It was an incredibly unworkable solution to a far more complex problem.
| Rinty wrote: | | Quote: | | I've yet to hear anyone over here who comes out in serious support of the Belfast Agreement. |
The majority of people voted for it yet the government decided in it's wisdom not to implement it. If the GFA had ever been carried out I would accept the criticism of it. But without a devolved parliament the GFA had no chance of succeeding. The whole thing got sidetracked on issues that were not part of the agreement, now we have the IMO, again not a part of the agreement, dictating the shots rather than the elected representatives of the people in their own parliament. |
The Agreement required the support of all the parties involved. The government couldn't realistically continue the process - or devolution - given the circumstances without returning to a non-power sharing model.
| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | exactly rinty, the gfa states that all parties involved should so all they can to ensure that violence comes to an end it doesnt mention decommsissioning of the pira as a prerequisite to the assembly being in place. |
I think that easily falls under the heading of 'doing all one can to end violence.' - and evidently the DUP agreed. It is unacceptable for a party in government to have its own private army. Indeed, I don't think they should even be able to get on a ballot paper. It's ridiculous - a bit like having a Mafia Party. |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2598
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject: h |
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| Quote: | | The Agreement required the support of all the parties involved. The government couldn't realistically continue the process - or devolution - given the circumstances without returning to a non-power sharing model. |
the agreement did have the support of all the parties involved yet fell on matters related to parties no involved in the agreement and at the nehest of the UK govt. If they took away the Scottish parliament for the same reasons I would have been outraged. What you are suggesting is that the majority of voters will can simply be overtruned and a return to a non-power sharing executive should be implemenred despite the will of the people.
| Quote: | | I think that easily falls under the heading of 'doing all one can to end violence.' - and evidently the DUP agreed. It is unacceptable for a party in government to have its own private army. Indeed, I don't think they should even be able to get on a ballot paper. It's ridiculous - a bit like having a Mafia Party. |
The parties all signed the pledge to do "all they can" against a background of troop withdrawal and a devolved, power-sharing assembly. Chicken and egg theories only can say whether one end of the agreement would or would not have worked in isolation. BUT the people of NI voted for the implementation of the Belfast Agreement, the fact is they were denied this. |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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the ira have effectively announced that they will stand down and thats before even getting to the fact that sinn fein do not control the ira despite what the mass media and unionists try to claim.
_________________
"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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RBK
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 260
Location: Ulster
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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I take it then if an all-ireland came about. That unionists as of right would have a say in goverment. No matter their showing at the polls.
Its called power-sharing. |
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