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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2598
Location: SW Scotland
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 Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: u |
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Let them celebrate their culture but only if if they are Pakistani (ie born in pakistan) it annoys me to see people in Glasgow openly wearing clothes and displaying symbols of their pakistani culture while not celebrating St Andrews day. Let them celebrate their culture in their own country not here.
Substitute the above words for Irish and the above statement is OK?
And how many people actually celebrate St Andrews day no matter what background they come from? My local council, local community groups, cultural organisations collectively cannot muster a St andrews day celebration between them but it seems our Irish community have to do so before they are considred Scottish, of course its racist! To ask an organisation of Irish republicans to have some sort of requirement to celebrate St Andrews day is ridiculous. Do we ask any other immigrant community to do this?
I refuse to celebrate St Patricks, St Andrews or any other Christain saint day. I refuse to believe that I would be less Scottish or Irish for taking this position.
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4413
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: Re: h |
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| SLG wrote: | | Aventinian wrote: | | Um, Patrick was British from a part of the country that is now in Scotland. |
How exactly do you draw the conclusion that he was British? |
Because he was a Brythonic Celt. Thus, a Briton. He is commonly referred to as British and indeed that is the only correct label for his nationality as Scotland had yet to be even conceived of.
| RFM wrote: | To SLG;
The Catholic Encyclopedia (not an entirely unimpeachable source) puts St. Patrick's birth place as at near Dumbarton in 387. |
In Kilpatrick I'd imagine... although there's something in the back of my head that makes me question if that was his actual birthplace or if it was somewhere nearby... |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2598
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: g |
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| We dont actually know where he was born. Well we know the supposed name of the village but not where that village was or is now. Some have suggested Dumbarton but most historians believe he was from Cumbria. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dłn Eideann
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: Re: h |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | SLG wrote: | | Aventinian wrote: | | Um, Patrick was British from a part of the country that is now in Scotland. |
How exactly do you draw the conclusion that he was British? |
Because he was a Brythonic Celt. Thus, a Briton. He is commonly referred to as British and indeed that is the only correct label for his nationality as Scotland had yet to be even conceived of. |
So he was a speaker of Brythonic Welsh. As is how most of those labels were usually given. He was not a British national, as no such British nation existed. If you want to tag him to any nation, the closest you will find would probably be the Kindom of Strathclyde.
| Aventinian wrote: | | RFM wrote: | To SLG;
The Catholic Encyclopedia (not an entirely unimpeachable source) puts St. Patrick's birth place as at near Dumbarton in 387. |
In Kilpatrick I'd imagine... although there's something in the back of my head that makes me question if that was his actual birthplace or if it was somewhere nearby... |
There are many claims. There are also various reasons why Kilpatrick could be named that. I would say it is nothing more than possible that Patrick came from near Dumbarton. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dłn Eideann
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | no we are an irish republican organisation in the west of scotland, that is our primarmy concern. if another organisation was to organise one and invite us then i am sure we would consider it, but it is unlikely we would be invited. wosba bands have attended the john mclean commemoration organised by the scottish republican socialist movement. |
Not trying to have a go here, just interested. You take a strong interest in Irish republicanism. You have close family links with Ireland, so it is entirely appropriate that you want get involved. The question is why you don't get involved in Scottish republicanism or Saints days. You say you might, if someone asked you. Why do you need to be asked though? This country belongs to you as much as anyone else and you have as much responsibility to it as anyone else. It shouldn't be the case that it is one or the other - Irish reunification or Scots Independence. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dłn Eideann
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: u |
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| Rinty wrote: | | And how many people actually celebrate St Andrews day no matter what background they come from? |
Is it not a lot to do with immigrant communities? As a Scot, traditionally you don't really need the St Andy's day celebration as we (most of us anyway) knew we were Scottish and Scots culture was all around us. Whereas a group of immigrants, if they want to hold on to their own culture, need to make much more of an effort to do that. The same can be seen in some American-Scots for example.
I think the reason a lot of people get annoyed about it, is the sense of an increasing Britification (or Anglo-Americanisation) of Scotland. We are being edged out and losing our identity and so we need to start making the effort to hold onto it in the same way as some of the Irish community has done. The Irish do it much better though. |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2598
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject: h |
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| Quote: | | I think the reason a lot of people get annoyed about it, is the sense of an increasing Britification (or Anglo-Americanisation) of Scotland. We are being edged out and losing our identity and so we need to start making the effort to hold onto it in the same way as some of the Irish community has done. The Irish do it much better though. |
I agree with that but it doesn't explain why people are happy to see Indian, Pakistani, Chinese, or Italian desecndents celebrate their culture but at the same time want to restrict the Irish communites displaying their culture. Nor does it explain Jacks idea that you have to be born in Ireland to be Irish. In my life I've known plenty of people born elsewhere who are scots. My own brother is an Irish citizen yet was born in Ayrshire, he considers himself both scots and Irish and why shouldnt he? |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dłn Eideann
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: h |
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| Rinty wrote: | | I agree with that but it doesn't explain why people are happy to see Indian, Pakistani, Chinese, or Italian desecndents celebrate their culture but at the same time want to restrict the Irish communites displaying their culture. Nor does it explain Jacks idea that you have to be born in Ireland to be Irish. In my life I've known plenty of people born elsewhere who are scots. My own brother is an Irish citizen yet was born in Ayrshire, he considers himself both scots and Irish and why shouldnt he? |
I totally agree that you don't need to be born somewhere to consider yourself part of that culture etc and I would hope that Jack realises that. Although my sisters kids are being raised in England, I hope they will consider themselves Scots. I think there are differences between the Irish and the other communities you mention though.
The Irish community is much more visible to the extent of dominating. Best example being Seltic FC possibly the biggest football club in the country being built around Irish identity. There are the marches etc. You don't see that from the other groups you mention. If you look at the two biggest clubs in Scotland (who between them probably have more fans than all the rest put together), we have one who celebrate all things Irish and one who celebrate all things British and British-Ulster. That's not a healthy situation IMO.
There is also the issue of inclusion. The Mela for example in Edinburgh is pitched as a very inclusive event. An effort to share their culture with locals who are unaware and usually with a very Scottish twist. I'm not sure if this happens with the Irish community. I might go along to the James Connolly march this year and have a look though.
There is also the impression that most of the large scale Irish immigration occurred a long time ago. Much of that community has been in Scotland for generations and I would think most have as much Scottish family as Irish. Most of the Asian communities have been here for one or two generations. Of course the other issue is that with Ireland being so close, it is much easier to retain ties with the 'old country' even after some generations.
Of course all of this says as much if not more about the 'Scottish' Scots (not an expression I want to use). Maybe if Scotland was Independent we would be more secure in our own identity. At the moment though, between the Irish, Ulster-Scots and Brits, the rest of us can feel like our own community has been lost. Even amongst the 'Scottish' Scots, we are told that the Gaels are Erse and Northern Isles and Caithness are Norse and the SE is English. |
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Rinty
Ready For Afterlife!
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2598
Location: SW Scotland
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:25 pm Post subject: g |
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| Quote: | | The Irish community is much more visible to the extent of dominating. Best example being Seltic FC possibly the biggest football club in the country being built around Irish identity. There are the marches etc. You don't see that from the other groups you mention. |
I know its not what you are actually saying, but it is easy for that to come over as "its ok for pakistanis and chinese to display their culture but it better not be too visible as then I would object".
I have a real problem with the attitude we have to the scots Irish community. If we used the same attitudes to other cultures we would know it clearly as racism. Its only 80 years since our national kirk was issuing papers warning us of the danger to our culture from the influx of Irish.
| Quote: | | If you look at the two biggest clubs in Scotland (who between them probably have more fans than all the rest put together), we have one who celebrate all things Irish and one who celebrate all things British and British-Ulster. That's not a healthy situation IMO. |
Two things. One - if they are so big possibly they are far more reprentative of scottish culture than the rest combined. Perhaps Scottish culture in the central belt is a multi-culture with irish and ulster being the two biggest sub-cultures. Secondly, whats not healhy is treating them as alien cultures rather than embracing them as our own, warts and all.
| Quote: | | At the moment though, between the Irish, Ulster-Scots and Brits, the rest of us can feel like our own community has been lost. Even amongst the 'Scottish' Scots, we are told that the Gaels are Erse and Northern Isles and Caithness are Norse and the SE is English. |
Unless of course our "own community" is simply the combination of the communities and culture in Scotland, be they loyalist, irish, muslim, italian or whatever. So what if the northern isles were norse or the borders northumbrian, who cares if the scots came from ireland or the protestants in northen ireland came from scotland. Its where they are now that matters and they shoud be part of the culture of where they live. That happens, not by adopting the native culture, but by adding your own culture to the pot. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
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Location: Dłn Eideann
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I'm struggling to say what I'm trying to say here.
Firstly, IMO yes, folk should be at ease to celebrate their own culture as they see fit.
However, no community lives in isolation. Communities and people with different backgrounds and ideas need to get along. I gave the example of the Mela in Pilrig. A great festival that is a credit to the city and does much to help different communities understand each other and appreciate their different aspects. Open days in the Central mosque in Edinburgh have also been very successful. Just like we need to learn to be more tolerant and open to immigrants, immigrant communities need to be open and tolerant of the other communities around them. James Connolly was born in Edinburgh and could be a great focus to bring together Scots-Irish and everyone else in Edinburgh. It's not. It carries the air of an exclusive event for the Scots-Irish and no-one else.
The fact that there is a group like Cairde na h-Eireann who said they want to stand 'ethnic Irish' candidates in parts of Glasgow for the council doesn't smack of a group that want to play a role in Scotland. I won't support or encourage that culture. |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| SLG wrote: | | parkhead_rfb wrote: | | no we are an irish republican organisation in the west of scotland, that is our primarmy concern. if another organisation was to organise one and invite us then i am sure we would consider it, but it is unlikely we would be invited. wosba bands have attended the john mclean commemoration organised by the scottish republican socialist movement. |
Not trying to have a go here, just interested. You take a strong interest in Irish republicanism. You have close family links with Ireland, so it is entirely appropriate that you want get involved. The question is why you don't get involved in Scottish republicanism or Saints days. You say you might, if someone asked you. Why do you need to be asked though? This country belongs to you as much as anyone else and you have as much responsibility to it as anyone else. It shouldn't be the case that it is one or the other - Irish reunification or Scots Independence. |
i have went to ssp meetings within my university and attended the john mclean rally when two of my associations bands were in attaendance. i also looked into helping out with my local ssp branch but unfortunately it clashes with my work regarding the band and i wont give that up to support the ssp. Also it is unfortunate that the types of attitude you will find on here regarding the irish community in scotland are prevalant in many scottish organisations and as such my views wouldnt really be welcomed in a lot of places.
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Tartan Jack
On A Journey (500 Miles)
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 26
Location: Coatbridge
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Ive no problem people celebrating their irish roots but it just seems that people should look at themselves and celebrate their own life and their own country.The amount of people that try and take the piss because i follow the Scottish national team is shocking,then you ask them why they dont support them they say"oh i support the republic",you ask them why and they say its their heritage,but from how far back,and do they even know who their Irish relatives are?As ive said before ive Irish friends so im definetly not racist against the Irish,its the people who think their Irish,wear irish tops and drink guiness to prove how irish they are that does my head in,when half of them have probably never been to ireland in their life!Then you get the people who automatically think because they support Celtic that they must support Ireland,why?I support a Welsh football team but i dont support the Welsh national team. I can understand people who have Irish mothers,fathers,grandparents feeling a good part irish but cant understand the rest.Iknow its a free country and everyone can do as they like but this is my opinion and im free to express it.
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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i dont support scotland because of the sfa and the way celtic players were treated, i dont support the republica either but i like to see them win. I am interested in irish politics, i like christy moore, damien dempsey etc irish culture is about more than wearing shirts. there is also a growing number of gaelic athletic association teams in scotland.
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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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Tartan Jack
On A Journey (500 Miles)
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 26
Location: Coatbridge
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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I respect your views mate and i love the irish,had some great times over there,hopefully back over before the years out,enjoy St Patricks Day,this is my last posting on the matter as ive said what i think on the matter,im gonna pour myself a guiness!
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dłn Eideann
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | | i have went to ssp meetings within my university and attended the john mclean rally when two of my associations bands were in attaendance. i also looked into helping out with my local ssp branch but unfortunately it clashes with my work regarding the band and i wont give that up to support the ssp. Also it is unfortunate that the types of attitude you will find on here regarding the irish community in scotland are prevalant in many scottish organisations and as such my views wouldnt really be welcomed in a lot of places. |
I appreciate that parkhead. That's why I said before that I thought it was more of a misunderstanding and miscommunication. Folk see Irish events in Glasgow, without seeing what these same individuals might also be involved in. I would think almost all Scots who support Irish republicanism would find a welcome in the SRSM. I would also think the only way to combat some of the attitudes that are prevelant is for people like yourself to be visible and show that you do exist and care about events in Scotland as well as Ireland and elsewhere. |
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Aventinian
'Our Scotland' Fossil
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 4413
Location: Broadcasting From An Anonymous Location Within the United Kingdom.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: h |
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| SLG wrote: | | Because he was a Brythonic Celt. Thus, a Briton. He is commonly referred to as British and indeed that is the only correct label for his nationality as Scotland had yet to be even conceived of. |
So he was a speaker of Brythonic Welsh. As is how most of those labels were usually given. He was not a British national, as no such British nation existed. If you want to tag him to any nation, the closest you will find would probably be the Kindom of Strathclyde. [/quote]
Yes, obviously these were the days before nations or states in any real form, but he would've been labeled as British at the time and probably understood himself to be so, even if these labels were usually bestowed by external observers (such as the Romans). |
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parkhead_rfb
Getting on a bit!
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 1974
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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18th of march 2006
10.30am Huntingtower road
bailleston
all welcome
organised by the west of scotland band alliance
_________________
"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP
"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dłn Eideann
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:32 pm Post subject: Re: h |
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| Aventinian wrote: | | Yes, obviously these were the days before nations or states in any real form, but he would've been labeled as British at the time and probably understood himself to be so, even if these labels were usually bestowed by external observers (such as the Romans). |
Well, I'm not convinced that he would have been labeled as 'British' from anyone from the British Isles prior to the 18/19th century. Apart from, as I say, linguistically. I would expect him to label himself by his language group, tribe and possibly with the emerging Kingdom of Strathclyde. That is all. I don't think any of us can really say how he would have described himself though. |
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SLG
Born Again..........and still Scottish!
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 5515
Location: Dłn Eideann
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| parkhead_rfb wrote: | 18th of march 2006
10.30am Huntingtower road
bailleston
all welcome
organised by the west of scotland band alliance |
It's a shame that your thread has ended up the way it has Parkhead. If I was in Bailleston I would come along. Hope it goes well. |
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RBK
I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 260
Location: Ulster
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Anybody who is going out to enjoy 'paddy's day,have a good 'un. I think even some loyalists in Ulster will be out.
Going off subject a wee bit,but I read in a book of tartans, that the name Wallace means......Strathclyde Briton. Just when somebody mentioned 'paddy' being British from Strathclyde. |
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