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parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

does anyone else feel that the talk of clans from the past has no real relevance to scotland today? you seem to find that americans are most interested in this kind of thing but for me i dont think its the way that scotland should be promoted to the outside world and we should do more to show what scotland is actually like. In particular i feel that the clans, tartan stuff also puts a lot of people off becoming aware of scottish history and becoming more interested in independence. Basically what i am getting at here is that i resent the scottish myths that the outside world, and a lot of the time ourselves too, use as a way of describing scotland.

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"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP

"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP

thetimeisnow · No Longer a Wean Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 91

azzuri · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 3776

I understand exactly what you are saying Parkhead - it does kind of put some people off all things Scottish - especially a lot of young Scots. It does appeal more to Americans because they love that sort of thing. I feel our marketing for tourism focuses too much on this sort of thing and probably puts off a lot of people who may be interested in Modern Scotland - the Scotland is isn't often portrayed abroad.

Euan is also right what he says though - Scotland and everything that's in it is something that we should embrace. Be it ancient or recent history - it's all part of the make up of modern Scotland. We shouldn't focus on any 1 part or lose site of the nation's roots either..
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"Every single person on this planet is unique. Just like everyone else..." - Random Guy in Edinburgh Pub

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parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

i just dont feel any affinity to that part of scotlands past at all. I would rather that our literature, music, great cities etc were all promoted rather than some guy in a tartan skirt.
_________________
"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP

"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP

Abieuan · Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:46 pm Post subject:

mal · No Longer a Wean Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 94

Rinty · Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:29 pm Post subject: in

I dont think it is an insult to call the kilt a skirt, especially from someone of an immigrant background who has already stated that he feels no affinity with that part of his countrys culture.

I dont see your point thought RFB, I really do not think that whether clans have relevance in todays society does anything to diminish the importance of their history. The myriad of tribes and kings in Irelands past has no relevance directly to today yet republicans constantly use that history to their advantage when required. Nothing wrong with that either.

Many americans came to be american because of ancestors who left the highlands for the lowlands and then the lowlands to the new world. The clans, their demise and their history is obviously extremely relevant to their identity. I agree there may be many americans who assume that if their ancestors came from Scotland that they must have been a member of a clan and have a tartan. But then many scots of Irish descent have an equally confused image of their past.

One branch of my family always repeated the claim that they came to Scotland from Fermanagh as a result of the famine. In fact, it turned out, that they came to Scotland from Sligo 50 years before the famine. The simple answer was that coal mining in the Sligo/Fermanagh border area was coming to an end and there were jobs and opportunitites in the Ayrshire coalfields.

I mentioned in another post how many of the Boston Irish were of the impression that they were oppressed catholics in the old country but that in reality they had been ulster scots (including the kennedys) who had become more Irish and Catholic as a result of living in an Irish immigrant community in America. Gradually they forgot their real heritage and adopted a shared, almost mythical one.

My favourite era in our history is the covenanters and the reformation but it's not exactly tourist material. Can you imagine it?

"And this is the site where a bunch of fundamentalists used to pray and if we just walk through this open cast mine, over the landfill site and through the marshes then we will see where they got shot on their way home - please turn your walkmans off as music is banned"

SLG · Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: scottish myths

mal · No Longer a Wean Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 94

azzuri · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 3776

GrampianLad · Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 2:08 am Post subject:

I find it a wee bit insulting as well. When people from outside of Alba call it a skirt, its easy to brush off and say that they honestly didnt know. When someone from inside of Scotland calls it a skirt, its plain insulting.
Clans should never be forgotten, as they were a very rich and predominant part of Scottish society in centuries past. The last reminants of Clan structure and life are just a small portion of culture that makes Scotland great and unique. And Kilts were very practical to Highlanders and Highland way of life, and in no way should they be casted off as some ridiculous plot to make more money off of tourists. Scots wore them as daily clothing, and some still do. Once we have realized that in one point in history kilts and tartan were essential, we can start capitalizing off this piece of identity and culture.

Rinty · Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 7:43 am Post subject: k

Did the clans were kilts?

I was always led to believe that the kilt as we know it comes from the British military bands and victorian fashion designers. The clans wore huge pieces of tartan wrapped around their whole body.

Please correct if I am wrong but, my information is that the kilt that is worn at ceremonies and weddings and the accompanying white socks and tunics has little if anything to do with clans and scotland.

GrampianLad · Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:53 am Post subject:

No problem. Actually Highland garb of the late 1600s through mid 1800s consisted of one 8 yard cloth of Tartan known as the Feileidh Mhor, Which is Gaidhlig for "Great Kilt". This is the same kilt as seen in the film "Rob Roy". It was wrapped around the body and belted on, with the kilt coming to just above the knees. The excess kilt could be draped over the shoulder on warmer, dyer days, wrapped around the body like a cape or blanket on colder days, or draped over the head like a hood on rainy days. The highlander on the move could spend all day walking around in the kilt, then remove it and use it as a blanket at night.
Tartan was worn by clansmen to distinct which clan a man or woman was from. There were also district tartans.
As far as socks go, thats a more modern accessory. Highlanders would wear crude deer hide as shoes, or to avoid discomfort go barefoot. Socks were generally worn by nobels or Clan Chiefs.
The wearing of kilts and tartans and the playing of the pipes were banned by the English government, but made a swift comeback. The Feileidh Mhor had come back as the Feileidh Beg, or "Little Kilt". The Little Kilt is the kilt you commonly see today, and is traditionally worn at weddings or ceremonies. But the kilt and tartan were once the common garb of Highlanders and Highland Clansmen alike.

azzuri · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 3776

whether it's a false identity or not, it's something that brings people together and gives them some sort of scottish 'community spirit'.

Whether founded within recent or ancient history, at least it still has some sort of link to the past.

No one ever complains about this sort of thing with Irish identity - of which was mostly invented/founded in America and exported back to Ireland.

To me it smacks of Scottish cringe - who cares? Do we seriously have to investigate everything historically before we can have a bit of fun together or have celebrations about being Scottish? I'd be astounded if anything in modern day Scotland resembles the Scotland of 500 years ago - so what! If it creates a feeling of goodwill and belonging amongst the majority them it's all good as far as I'm concerned.
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"Every single person on this planet is unique. Just like everyone else..." - Random Guy in Edinburgh Pub

Possibly the funniest site in the world, 'The Daily Mash' - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/

mystic107 · Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 4:13 pm Post subject:

I think the reason Scottish-Americans dwell on the clans and kilts is becouse this gives us a sence of belonging which is sorrly lacking in America We have been kept apart by our government so there is no organised resistance to there Ideas . I feel Scotland can use some of this as the glue to an organised front for Independance.

parkhead_rfb · Getting on a bit! Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 1974

i disagree about irish culture. ireland has the GAA, amazing writers for such a small country and musically they have produced people like christy moore, the pogues, damien dempsey and boyzone Embarassed

_________________
"our revenge will be the laughter of our children" bobby sands MP

"there is no equality in a society that stands upon the political and economic bog, if only the strongest make it good or survive" bobby sands MP

azzuri · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 3776

Like all small countries - Ireland has created a sense of being special, somehow different than others and of being unique - just like all other small countries (including Scotland) - this is a natural phenomenon amongst small nations.

I suggest you read a book by Fintan O'Toole, 'After The Ball', It will hopefully give you an insight into modern Irish culture in the ROI and also you will be interested in the parts about the economic boom of the 90's and how this has shaped the political establishment today.
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"Every single person on this planet is unique. Just like everyone else..." - Random Guy in Edinburgh Pub

Possibly the funniest site in the world, 'The Daily Mash' - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/

GrampianLad · Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:27 am Post subject:

I have respect for all of our Celtic brothers. All cultures are unique, yet similiar with Celtic influences. At the end of the day, were all Celts.

Aventinian · Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:10 pm Post subject:

Like what you want, mate. No body should force a culture on you just because it is 'Scottish' - you can pick and choose.

Personally, I like Highland Cathedral as much as Belle & Sebastian and whisky as much as Irn-Bru, but you certainly don't have to embrace any aspects of culture you don't want to. It cheapens the whole thing.
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Shagpile · No Longer a Wean Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 79

Another Scottish myth which should consigned to the dustbin is that Scotland is an equal partner in this Great British union. I mean, as a net contributor to the coffers of the UK we will never host the Olympic Games, or a world cup. Oh I can hear the knockers saying Scotland isn't big enough....blah, blah! Another myth, a unionist one but a myth all the same, an independent Scotland should aspire to such things!