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Blackleaf · Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 6:00 pm Post subject: Monmouthshire - Wales or England?

Monmouthshire - England or Wales ?

Monmouth is an abbreviation of Monnow-mouth, Monnow originally deriving from the Welsh Myn-wy (myn - swift, wy - water), thus combining both English and Welsh elements. To understand Monmouthshire's position, you first need to understand how the idea of 'England' and 'Wales' was created.

When the Romans were finally driven out in 410 A.D., it wasn't long before the Angles, Saxons and Jutes turned up and settled around the eastern and southern coastal areas. The divided Celtic tribes were too busy fighting each other to notice what was going on, and before too long the Anglo-Saxons were in control of an area roughly corresponding to modern England. There were a number of small Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, which later consolidated into just four; East Anglia, Wessex, Mercia and Northumbria.

Mercia, the midlands kingdom, was at first like the others, driving the Celts out of Shropshire and Herefordshire. But under its two great eighth-century leaders, Aethelbald and Offa, the emphasis changed. More concerned with getting the upper hand over their rival Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, they largely left the Celts to the West untroubled. By this time all these Celts were being called Welsh (from the Anglo-Saxon word wealh, meaning foreigner or slave), whilst they called themselves cymry, meaning comrades. Thus there were the North Welsh ('Cymry-land' or Cumberland), Mid-Welsh (Wales), West Welsh ('Cerniw-wealh' or Cornwall) and South Welsh (Brittany). The Welsh tribes in Wales, being Celtic, still spent most of their time fighting each other. They had cause; in around 760 King Offa began work on the famous Offa's Dyke, a huge ditch to mark the border with the Welsh. It is probable that this ditch was less a defensive device and more a 'here's the border and let's keep it that way' one, enabling Offa to concentrate his efforts against his Anglo-Saxon rivals.

Around this time much of the future west and central Monmouthshire was known as Gwent, and was a kingdom which enjoyed periods of independence between periods of being bossed around by the neighbouring kingdom of Glywysing (roughly Glamorganshire). The combined area, during the periods of unity, was known as Morgannwg. This state of affairs continued for some centuries, but came crashing to an end in 1066 with the Norman Invasion of England. The new king, William I, chose his most savage barons and set them up in the three Marcher counties of Cheshire, Shropshire and Herefordshire, with a licence to get as much land as they could from the Welsh. Monmouthshire was an early victim, and was under full English control by 1074.

Over the next two centuries, the English slowly nibbled away at the Welsh kingdoms until finally, in 1282, they conquered Gwynedd. That year the Principality of Wales came under the control of Edward I. The Statute of Rhuddlan (1284) created the administrative areas that became the shires of Anglesey, Caernarfonshire, Flintshire, Merionethshire, Cardiganshire and Carmarthenshire. Because Edward made his son the first Prince of Wales, this area was called 'the Principality' a name which in modern times has extended to the whole of Wales. The rest of what is now Wales (including Monmouthshire) remained 'uncountified' and in the hands of the Norman-English Marcher lords.

Time rolled on, and in 1485 the Tudors (a Welsh dynasty) came to the English throne. This at first did not affect Wales much - but England's most infamous king, Henry VIII, was to change all that. In 1536, primarily as a financial move, he passed the Act of Union. As part of the reorganisation of the country the Marcher lordships were formed into the counties of Brecknockshire, Denbighshire, Glamorganshire, Montgomeryshire, Radnorshire, Pembrokeshire and Monmouthshire, which along with the 'Principality' shires of Wales, were to be "incorporated, united and annexed to and with his Realm of England".

It was all nice and clear - for six years. Then in 1542 English Common Law was made applicable to the whole of Wales. This gave a statutory foundation to the Court of the Council of the Marches, and justice and administration for Wales were vested in the officers of a new court - the King's Great Session in Wales. Whereas the other twelve counties had their own court circuits, Monmouthshire came under the jurisdiction of the Courts of Chancery and Exchequer at Westminster. There were certain advantages in this. One of these was that Monmouthshire was allowed to send two Knights to Parliament like English counties, unlike Welsh counties which returned only one. In the reign of Charles II, Monmouthshire was included in the Oxford circuit, together with Oxford, Gloucester, Worcester and Hereford. The county became a popular one for rich Victorians to settle in during the Industrial Revolution. A 1937 map shows the Anglo-Welsh border passing clearly to the west of the county.

Monmouthshire's motto as a county was Usque Fidelis (Latin, faithful to both), emphasizing its border status. It carried on quite happily, until the disastrous 1974 c**k-up of local government, when it was renamed Gwent and formally transferred to Wales by a Labour government bent on placating the Welsh Nationalists. (A sneaky move, as being a predominantly English county this weakened the nationalist cause overall). In 1996 it was all change again as a second round of cockeyed misorganization followed. Gwent was replaced by five Unitary Authorities, one of which was half into old Glamorganshire, plus a few other border changes.

In 2000 another Labour government ran a referendum on Welsh devolution. In spite of millions being pumped into the Yes campaign (nothing for the No side, of course), it just scraped home by a fraction of a percent. The 'new' Monmouthshire voted 49-1 against.

The only way to settle the matter is to have a referendum for the people of Monmouthshire, to decide on whether they wish to be 'in Wales' or be 'in England'.

As the United Kingdom begins to dismantle then this will be a very important decision for the people of Monmouthshire.

English Democrats are considering standing in the 2007 Welsh Assembly Elections on the Ticket "English Democrats - letting Monmouthshire decide"

http://englishdemocrats.org.uk/ne...ll&id=1146769073&archive=

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Blackleaf · Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject:

English Democrats to make stand in Monmouthshire

Next year (2007) will be the Third "Welsh Assembly" Elections (and indeed Scottish Parliament Elections)

Subject to National Council Approval, then the English Democrats will be putting up Candidates for

The Consituency of Monmouthshire - currently in Wales (although it was in England until the 1960's)

and also on the Party List for SE Wales - where Monmouthshire is currently located.

===================================

To qualify as a candidate you only need to be a UK Citizen.

Ideally we would like to select candidates who live in Monmouthshire, or Wales or close to Wales.

If you are interested in Standing for the English Democrats to

1 Make a point that Wales has elections and England does not - as we don't have an English Parliament.

2 Demand a referendum for the people of Monmouthshire to decide if they wish to be in Wales or England - obviously if Wales becomes independent, then the people of Monmouthshire may want to be English rather the Welsh - (Certainly I would !)

If you are interested please send an E-mail to our Party Chairman Robin Tilbrook - in the Subject Matter put "Welsh Assembly - Monouthshire" with you details.

(At this stage you do not have to be an English Democrats party member)

Regards

ED

englishdemocrats.org.uk
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SLG · Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 6:58 pm Post subject:

This will probably be a good publicity stunt for the English Democrats. Have the SNP ever stood in Berwick?

Gung-ho · Nationalist Joined: 22 Jan 2006 Posts: 103

No but we did have a Counciller in Brighton

Brighton rocked by councillor's defection to SNP
By Frances Horsburgh, Scottish Political Writer in the Herald
THE Scottish National Party had news yesterday of another Labour councillor who wants to join their ranks. This latest "Braveheart" hasn't crossed the floor in North Lanarkshire, Glasgow, or Dundee - he lives in Brighton.
Councillor James McGinley, who represents the Brunswick and Adelaide ward on Brighton and Hove Council, has resigned from the Labour group and left the party to throw in his lot with the SNP.

There's a slight snag. Despite all his enthusiasm for the cause, he can't spell the name of his new political pals and in his letter of resignation calls them "The Scottish Nationalist Party".

The SNP won't hold that against him, but has pointed out that he isn't actually a member yet. An application form has been dispatched forthwith.

In his notice to quit, Councillor McGinley, who is from Kirkcaldy. said he had been a member of the Labour Party for 25 years but after a Christmas visit to Scotland had decided to represent the Nationalists for the few months until the next Brighton and Hove Council elections.

In a comment that must surely alarm Scottish Secretary Donald Dewar, he predicted: "Scotland will not vote for New Labour next time."

Later, having attended his first meeting as a fledgling SNP councillor, Mr McGinley said he had been booed by the Labour Party and cheered by the Tories. The make-up of the council was now 52 Labour, 25 others, and one SNP.

"I came home at the New Year and discovered that all my old friends in Scotland had joined the SNP. Who am I to buck the trend?" he said. Asked if he would stand again, Mr McGinley replied: "If the SNP send me a few grand."

An SNP spokesman in Edinburgh said: "Clearly, we welcome Mr McGinley and hope the people of Brighton and Hove have a warm and friendly attitude to his change of heart. People from Brighton to Banff are seeing through the spin-doctoring of Labour."

Meanwhile, the SNP accused Labour of abusing power by using civil servants to draw up its manifesto for the Holyrood elections.

Party leader Alex Salmond is to make a formal protest to the Scottish Office over the role of the officials, who are supposed to be strictly impartial. - Jan 15
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Aventinian · Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 11:09 pm Post subject:

I'd give Plaid Cymru a vote in Strathclyde, even if it was just for the entertainment aspect.

I've heard of the PC standing in mock elections in English schools - usually seen as something of an elementary tactical mistake though.
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darkside · Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 11:55 pm Post subject:

SLG · Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 10:26 am Post subject:

redlak · Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject:

In the case of Berwick upon Tweed it is undoubtedly a Scottish Town left adrift in Englands control.
Berwickshire has been without a county town of any real merit because of Berwicks capture by England it is time this was returned to Scotland.

Clearly the citizens of Berwick upon Tweed are more connected to Scotland given the association with all things sporting and even the old county regiment the KOSB drawing from Scotland.
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SLG · Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 8:39 pm Post subject:

I think that it's been so long that the people of Berwick upon Tweed would need to be asked what they wanted.

Cymro · Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 7:56 am Post subject:

Sir Fynwy is and allways has been Welsh. In the 1960's in was seen in a grey area and therefore several acts of parliament refer to to a 'Wales and Monmouth'. Any moves to move it into England have come to an end now. The same people in the 1960's where claiming Wrexham and the rest of the Welsh Marches in North East and Mid Wales where also English and should be administered by England. It never happened and never should it happen

Aventinian · Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 9:50 am Post subject:

SLG · Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 10:29 am Post subject:

Abieuan · Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject:

Gwent/Monmouthshire is Welsh.
As a border area, it has a lot of English people living in it, and is the only area of Wales where there is popular support for the Tories, a bit like Dumfriesshire.
The children are taught Welsh in school, there is even a successfull Welsh only school in Cas-newydd/Newport.
I dissagree with a referendum, why should English incomers be able to vote the Welsh out of their own country?

Cymro · Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject:

Abieuan · Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 8:51 pm Post subject:

Yes, Cymro, the buffer zone is west of the Severn in mid Wales and the south, and Avon Dyferdwy/River Dee in the north.

Offa's Dyke had nothing to do with where Welsh or English people lived, only what territory he thought he could retain controll of.

Lothian Sky · I Love 'Our Scotland' Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 350

It is surely Welsh.
In fact if you think about it, so is most of England.
The English are not native to these shores, and I think they have enough land as it is. So there!

Lothian Sky · I Love 'Our Scotland' Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 350

The English Democrats really need to grow up.
They have a LONG way to go before they will be taken seriously.

Constant references to Scots this and Scots that. Do they not realise that the "Scots" they refer to are nothing of the sort? John Reid and Gordon Brown don't do anything in Scotland's name. They do it for Labour first, and BRITAIN second. Britain. Britain Britain Britain.
The fact they were born in Scotland is utterly irrelevant, because they are BRITS. What's so hard to understand about that?

If the SNP moaned about the English in the same way, they would quite rightly be torn to pieces. So much for solidarity between nationalists.

Conclusion: English Democrats=bigots.
"it's all the Jocks' fault"
Yawn....

Aventinian · Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject:

SLG · Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject: