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EU Baloo · Finding Ma' Way Joined: 08 Jul 2006 Posts: 7

I think that the Israelies have leaned on the 'persecuted' card once too often. They are a state created after the world could not stand aside and see them persecuted any longer. They wanted it, we all wanted it.

But the expansionist and brutally agressive country that exists today is no reflection of the ideal.

After what happened to them at the hands of the Nazi's, you would think they would be real amassadors for a non-agressive approach with no means of destroying millions.

I don't expect them to turn the other cheek or not to protect themselves, but I also don't expect them to throw the world into chaos and fuel middle eastern violence because they won't compromise.

It's all our (Britain's) fault anyway...we drew the lines in the sand - quite literally.

How about a campaign for a UN World Religious Site for Jerusalem...owned by NOBODY, policed by the world, open to all.

Oh well there goes the can of worms....

SF102 · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject:

and then we woke up Sad

it would be nice to have that . . .but there's too much hate and bigotry in this world, not to mention suspicion and greed and fear
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SLG · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject:

The idea for the UN to take over Jerusalem has been discussed before, no? I agree though, it will take something radical like that to help matters.

SF102 · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:32 pm Post subject:

I don't think it will help matters at all if the UN went in. The ONLY thing that will help is if the "people" themselves wish it to happen. Sooner or later the populus will get fed up the bigotry and decide to do something about it themselves. I bet if you put the "normal" peoples together they'd quite happily get on a live in peace with each other . . it's only when you get extremists (on BOTH sides) that they fight and kill each other.
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EU Baloo · Finding Ma' Way Joined: 08 Jul 2006 Posts: 7

Thanks for that - I didn't know that...sorry for my misconception of the history behind it. Wink

Neil · Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject:

You don't expect the Israelis to turn the other cheeck. Good because they won't. This war started because Hezbollah struck them & kidnapped a soldier, whom they still refuse to release, Pure & simple.

Cado · I Love 'Our Scotland' Joined: 14 May 2006 Posts: 283

I'd go along with that. Ive never thought that Jerusalem should be in the sole possession of one another group.

It sits at the heart of Islam, Christendom and Judeaism. I was thought in RE at school that there were the four quarters of Jerusalem - the three aforementioned and the Armenian quarter.

How one side can claim it as there own I don't know. However, through out most of its history (before the world wars) Jerusalem was an open place to all - I think the keys to one of the more holy Christain places is held by a muslim. The reason being that all the various Christain denominations didn't feel it was right that one denomination should hold the keys in preference to the other - so they entrusted the keys to the muslim. The muslins consider Jesus a prophet so there was no suspicion of anything going ary.

I going to have to defend Britian here though. Yes, the Palestinian protectorate was in control of the British after WW2. However Britian was pretty well AGAINST the zionist/jewish immigration because it was clear that it was going to cause instability, many of the local population were unhappy at the thought of being swamped.

I think the UK wanted to limit their arrival to 10,000 per wahtever unit of time - but the immigrants were arriving by the ship load. Britian started to hold them back and keep them on the ships - this raised a lot of tensions in the US. An Israeli terrorist outfit detonated a few car bombs in London (the first instance of car bombs on UK soil I think)

Tensions were rising with many of the new immigrants taking up arms against the British in Palestine - the Palestinians were with us then since the police were 'British Palestinian' etc.

The key moment came when Israelis terrorists blew up the King David Hotel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

I think the British Govt of the time then said 'sod it' and pulled us out of Palestine - the US Govt was not happy with this because it left the region without any obvious control. However the British responce to the US was FO!!!! since it was the US that had been giving the British hell over trying to control the jewish/zionist immigration.

Ever since this time there has been a large section of the British 'establishment' who have actually been very sympathetic to the Palestinians - since it was viewed as an US encouraged/backed incursion into 'British Empire' territory.

When we left the whole thing went pearshaped.

Prior to this there hadn't really been an 'States' within Arabia/Palestine/Mesopotania - rather it had just been an expansive territory occupied a muslim beduin, tribes etc - the original controling power for the whole region had been the Ottoman Empire (ie Turkey) - this finally collapsed after WW1 - when they backed the wrong side (hence Gallipoli etc)

The Ottoman Empire had controlled the whole region for the best part of 600 years - it started not long after the period of the crusades

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire

So, from 1299 to 1917 the whole region was under the control of one empire - it is now trying to evolve into the concept of Nation States - a concept that is completely alien to many muslims since for so long the whole area was united into one territory.

Anyway - I digress. although the UK is involved in this - the bulk of our involvement had been working out what to do with the region after the collapse of the Ottoman empire during WW1 - don't feel TOO much blame can be attached to us since the Palestinian protectorate had been reasonably peaceful and the civilian population was left to go about its business.

happychappy · Finding Ma' Way Joined: 07 Aug 2006 Posts: 10

what frusttrates me most about this conflict (apart from the aye but you did that, aye but you started, naw you did nonsense) is hezzbollah complaing about 'innocent' victims who were in actaul fact being used as human shields for weapons/bases. a disgusting and shameful tactic. the bbc also tend to gloss over the fact that hexxbollah have been lobbing thousands of weapons at israeli towns, apartment blocks and hospitals, and still people believe hezzbollah has the moral high groung. i wish they would just kill each other off and leave us all in peace.

IF Convenor · Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject:

Where do you expect a guerrilla army to operate? They can't exactly build large camps can they?

I've no doubt Edward Longshanks said the same sort of things about Wallace and Bruce hiding out among the civilian population.
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Neil · Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:49 pm Post subject:

Hezbollah are only nominally geurillas. They are, in fact, a pretty heavily armed force acting as a state within a state. As such they are perfectly able to & have built heavily forified bases. Qana wasn't one.

I think if Bruce had, at swordpoint, forced the sma folk to soak up English archery fire with their bodies at Bannockburn he would not be thought a great hero.
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dave-ex-pat · Finding Ma' Way Joined: 21 May 2006 Posts: 7

Orthodox Jews Demand End to Zionist Atrocities in the Middle East

The brutal and indiscriminate attack upon the people and infrastructure of Lebanon by the Zionist State "Israel" is a crime against all basic standards of decency and humanity.
The excuse given for this murderous invasion was the attack by Hezbollah on the IDF. What this might have to do with the hundreds of thousands of Lebanese innocent men, women and children, who are subjected to an ongoing living hell, is beyond comprehension.
Indeed, this current aggression is only the second chapter of the recent viciousness; the first being the furious reinvasion of Gaza and the onslaught on its civilians and the ruination of its basic human services.
Of course, voices may be heard that the IDF are simply responding. This, of course, ignores the question of the evil, implicit in punishing blameless people for the deeds of others. And it totally ignores the root of the problem, the dispossession and subjugation of the Palestinian people which began in 1948, was expanded in 1967 and continues unabated to this day. The crux of the matter is that beyond the immorality of the Zionist treatment of the Palestinians is the ultimate fact -- the ideology of Zionism and ensuing establishment of the Zionist state conflicts with the basic teachings of Judaism.
Zionism is the transformation from Judaism, a G-dliness and spirituality, into a G-dlessness, materialism with nationalistic aspirations. Theodor Herzl and his cohorts, the fathers of this relatively new ideology of Zionism (approximately 100 years), have taken the Almighty out of the equation.
The ultimate establishment of the Zionist State, the fulfilment of the Zionist ideology, takes this blasphemy a step further. The Jewish people were sent into exile by Divine decree. They where then expressly commanded by the Almighty, not to attempt to leave their exilic existence through any human intervention. They were expressly forbidden to create their own state, such as the Zionist state of "Israel". (Talmud, Tractate Kesuboth, p.111).
The Jewish people are forbidden to oppress another people. The creation of the State of "Israel" came about through, the theft from, subjugation and oppression of, the Palestinian people.
Torah Jewry, therefore, condemns the horrifying suffering inflicted upon both the Palestinian and Lebanese people. Because of all of the above, all attempts to achieve peace and stability for "Israel" are destined to fail. The Creator cannot be defied with impunity.
The Rabbis stated, that the State of "Israel" will result in unending pain, suffering and bloodshed. May the Almighty protect His creations.
The State of "Israel" does not speak in the name of Jews, they have stolen the name "Israel" from the Jewish people. Jews are commanded to be loyal citizens in every country in which they reside.
Zionism and the State of "Israel", is the main cause of the exacerbation of anti Semitism universally.
The government of the illegitimate State of "Israel", continually attempts to uproot the Torah and its statutes. They persistently oppress the Torah true Jews who reside in its borders.
We pray that all misery in the Holy Land and Lebanon, shall come to an end and that Zionism, the root of the suffering, continue to fade from Jewish consciousness, to be replaced by the faith of Torah. We shall all witness soon the peaceful dismantlement of the Zionist State "Israel". May we merit seeing the day when all humanity will serve the Almighty in harmony and peace. Amen

Neil · Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:11 pm Post subject:

The similarity between a free country & a dictatorship is that in a free country people are able to criticise their government while in a dictatorship people are only able to criticise other peoples government. Evidently Israel is a free country.

When an Albanian man agreed to testify on oath at the Milosevic "trial" that it was the KLA not Yugoslavs who committed atrocities his daughter was disappeared & the NATO police made no attempt to find her. To be fair I suppose the fact that I can write that makes Britain free even though NATO is fascist.
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The aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.
H. L. Mencken