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Rinty · Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:52 pm Post subject: SNP should pack it in!

In this post I am floating an idea. I am not sure if this idea is workable or feasible. I am not sure what way some people will take it. BUT, I ask anyone who wants to comment on it or engage in debate about it to do so in the spirit that I intended the post – a serious look at how we deliver self-determination for the people of Scotland, not a sectarian party-political driven post.

At this time there is a real desire for parties who support the idea for independence to come together to form a broad movement. In my opinion the SNP are an anomaly in this movement and a barrier to delivering it. My reasons are that the SNP define themselves as THE independence movement and their main raison-d’etre is independence.

The SNP vote has fallen at election after election in recent years, yet the actual vote for parties who support independence has grown. Most of the lost votes for the SNP would seem to have gone to the SSP and the Greens. In my opinion, the rise in the pro-independence vote overall has come from Greens and Socialists who previously supported unionist parties with their political perspective and have been persuaded to support independence by the emergence of these parties. I believe the same thing could happen if new pro-independence parties emerged in the centre ground.

Most SNP members see the party as a transitional body that will disintegrate in to independent parties left, right and centre after independence. What if we do that disintegration now instead of after independence? Would independence be more achievable if we had the re-alignment of political parties now rather than later?

The SNP contains members who are pro-business/low tax types like Mather, Euro-liberal/Celtic Tiger types like Sturgeon and even the remaining few on the left that support a socialist economy of sorts including the controlled capitalism of Norway.

Some members of the SSP do not specifically believe in Independence yet back a party who does as they believe in socialism and see independence as a method for delivering a socialist economy for Scotland as a first step.

There are members of the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems who believe in independence but see the political ethos of their particular party to be more important than independence.

The Greens talked at their conference yesterday about coalitions after 2007. Most of the talk centred around them joining the Lib/Lab coalition with strong demands, in a looser arrangement than exists in the current Executive. While the SGP do have independence as a policy, it was not considered to be one of the demands it would make for supporting a unionist coalition.

What if we had Scottish parties who supported Independence ranging from the SSP to a Scottish Tory party? In my view this would break down as SSP, centre left party, centre right party, Scottish tory party, Scottish Greens.

If all five of these parties existed, they would attract more people as members and voters than the existing 3 parties in favour of independence. The SNP would be replaced with parties who have a distinct political ethos rather than a single issue affair. The chances are, most of the existing six independent MSPs would also have a party they could call home. I also believe that the SNP in this form is more likely to attract support from trade unions and civil movements and NGO’s.

All of the parties could then agree to vote for a referendum on Independence in Holyrood.

What do you all think?

SLG · Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:03 pm Post subject:

There are two options. The first is for one independence party (the SNP) to try to sell themselves as the only route to independence and manage to get a majority in parliament. This is not going to happen.

The second option is already happening. A broadening of the movement. The far left and the greens/liberals have the SSP and SGP available.

So you are saying you want to see an extention of this, with the abolition of the SNP and three new parties taking it's place.

I agree with the concept. But, there has to be a balance between maximising the pro-indy vote, by providing a pro-indy party that suits every political view, and splitting the vote too far. In addition to the SSP and SGP, I think there needs to be two more parties. One the right/centre right and one on the cntre/centre left. Any more parties would IMO be overkill.

The centre/centre-left party is the SNP. Yes, they have struggled to come to terms with broadening of the independence movement. It is happening though and the SNP have set out quite a distinct policy area. Their raison d'etre still is independence, but on most matters, they are spell out how they would like the new Scotland to be. They are very clearly a centre-left social democratic party. Although they are still a bit confused when it comes to the pro-enterprise low-tax agenda.
IMO it is unreasonable to expect the party to just disappear. I have no great tie to the party itself, but many do. There are also the career politicians etc full time party employees who won't let it happen.

Meanwhile, I think we do need a party on the right/centre right. Have you heard of the Scottish Enterprise Party? The haven't done anything, but they have looked at trying to get a serious centre-right free-marker low-tax pro-indy party off the ground.

Alternatively, who knows what is going to happen with the Scottish Tory party. There are too many unionist involved in the party for it to become the party the independence movement needs, but maybe Brian Monteith and others will break away...

Maol.Chaluim · Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: SNP should pack it in!

Maol.Chaluim · Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:18 pm Post subject:

Rinty · Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:21 pm Post subject: no

I'm an SSP member maol so I know all about the convention from before it started.

I'm not talking about the convention, this could still happen after any fragmentation.

What I am saying is that fragmentation has led to less votes for the SNP yet more votes for independence, further gragmentaion could further the cause of independence.

As SLG points out, there can be cionfusion in the SNPs message re low tax etc. This stems, in my opinion, from their need to be all things to all people who support independence.

Maol.Chaluim · Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:24 pm Post subject:

Here's an article from the Herlad from 2nd September:

azzuri · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 3776

Interesting Idea Rinty - and probably does have some weight to it - but the SNP might see it as a huge gamble in losing a lot of the voters they already have to pro-unionist parties.
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Rinty · Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:47 am Post subject: idea

SLG · Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:56 am Post subject:

SLG · Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:58 am Post subject:

As I tried to explain above, the SNP will not split. Any new party will have to come about off its own back. There may be high profile defections such as Mather. There may also be a place for people like Monteith and Fraser. Just as the SNP didn't have anything to do with the setting up of the SSP or the SGP, neither will it have anything to do with the setting up of centre-right party. Some of its members and former members might though. The party would very quickly adapt, just as it has with the advent of the SSP and SGP, and use it to it's advantage (i.e. to focus on a particular political stance).

Does anyone have any info on the SEP? Are they serious? Who is involved?

If I was of that political slant, I would maybe get involved by myself, but this needs to be a natural development, I don't think the SNP can force a section of the party to do this.

Maol.Chaluim · Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:07 pm Post subject:

Here you go:

http://www.scottishenterpriseparty.org/index.htm

Their convener (not sure if that's the proper title) is Iain Brodie of Falsyde, whose name avid readers of The Scotsman letters page will recognise. As you know, they're centre right, formed a couple of years ago. They plan to field candidates for Holyrood in 2007.

So far, they're not interested in participating in the Convention, as they see it as just another independence "talking shop". That was their position about a year ago, anyway... They're also in favour of retaining the monarchy, but unlike the SNP (who I think should be more vocal about this), they don't advocate a referendum on the issue.

SLG · Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:51 pm Post subject:

Cheers Maol. Interesting site - looks like what we've been talking about. Shame the discussion forum and press releases section isn't working. I don't read the Scotsman, is Iain Brodie still use the title of SEP convener (or whatever) if/when writting?

Maol.Chaluim · Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:41 pm Post subject:

Yes, I think he does..

Maol.Chaluim · Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:45 pm Post subject:

From the SEP sweb site:

SLG · Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:50 am Post subject:

patriot1320 · Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:02 pm Post subject:

Reading this it's the first time i've ever heard of the SEP Party. I do think however the SNP will not let any seats go to other parties. I do think scotland will be independant in the future and I hope we gain this in 2007. All parties campaining for independance should unite and fight the lies we know Labour and conservatives will spout...

My hope and vision would be a parliament with no political parties, just elected officials who debate and vote to make scotland a better place. I think Politicians are not acting in a matute manner (north and south) and I think this is whats turning votes off. I for one cringe at the way politcians act in some interviews....

I dont think the tories will ever join ranks with the SNP, never going to happen. these things are only said to cause the SNP damage and dent a reputation. Only labour and the Lib-Dems will continue the coalition... mind you the lib-dems are a fly on a labour sh... cough..... Smile