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sandmountainslim I Love 'Our Scotland'

Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 354 Location: Fyffe, Alabama
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Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:41 pm Post subject: September 3 1658 Cromwell Goes To Hell! |
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On September 3 1658 the old War Criminal/Traitor Oliver Cromwell went to Hell in a handbasket! Good Riddance!
Below is a description to what happened to his hideous ugly head after his much deserved death as well as his entry in the ScotWatch Rogues Gallery.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
WP
Rogues Gallery
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/scotwatch/photos/view/78cd?b=13
Cromwell's head
Cromwell's Head and its Curious History
Cromwell died of natural causes in 1658, and was buried with great ceremony, but was not left to rest in peace.
The desecration of Cromwell's corpse three years later, and the separation of the head from the body, has led to its curious history.
Nearly 350 years after his death Cromwell and his remains continue to fascinate - this exhibition aims to explain what did happen to Cromwell's head.
Cromwell's death and funeral
Cromwell died at Whitehall in the afternoon of 3rd September 1658; he was 59 years old. As the head of state, the Lord Protector, Cromwell was honoured with an elaborate and regal funeral. It was based on the ceremonies that had taken place at the death of King James I in 1625. There were three phases spread over eleven weeks.
The post-mortem
The most likely cause of Cromwell's death was septicaemia following a urinary infection. His system was physically weakened by the 'tertian ague', European malaria, and perhaps mentally by the death of his daughter Betty, a month earlier.
His body was examined by George Bate, his physician who had also served Charles I and went on to serve Charles II. He published the results in 1663.
The funeral effigy depicts Cromwell as a King, a title which he had refused in his lifetime. His lying in state took place at Somerset House, and was in two phases. Initially the effigy was seen reclining on a bed, which was richly decorated and adorned with heraldic devices, and secondly it was moved to an upright position, to stand in state.
Lying in State
It was traditional that great men should have life like effigies made of them at their death. In Cromwell's case it is known that a wooden effigy was made, possibly two, which were used for a formal period of lying in state. The head of the effigy was modelled in wax and based on a death mask taken from the corpse. Cromwell's actual remains were buried quietly on 10 November, whilst the funeral preparations were made, for which the effigies would be the centrepiece.
Cromwell's coffin had a plate attached to it, which had been requested by the Privy Council. Their instruction had been for a gold plate although the plate retrieved later was of brass. The inscription describes Cromwell as the Protector of England, Scotland and Ireland, his birth date, his inauguration date as Lord Protector, and the date of his death.
The Funeral
The grand state funeral took place on 23rd November and was enormously expensive, with estimates of its cost ranging from £20,000 - £100,000. The funeral procession took seven hours to pass from Somerset House to Westminster Abbey, where the effigy was laid under an impressive catafalque.
Restoration and desecration
The Restoration of King Charles II in May 1660 was at the invitation of Parliament, and followed the abdication of Richard Cromwell. It led to the desecration of Oliver Cromwell's body.
The decision to remove Cromwell's remains from Westminster Abbey, along with those of two others implicated in the execution of the King, was taken by Parliament in December 1660. After a macabre hanging their heads were placed on poles on Westminster Hall as a warning to others.
The treatment of the corpses
Cromwell's corpse had been embalmed and wrapped in cloth after the post - mortem. It was dug up along with those of his son in law Henry Ireton and John Bradshaw, who had been the judge at the trial of King Charles. Their treatment can only be described as vile.
The bodies were removed from Westminster Abbey on 26th January 1661. Four days later, on the anniversary of the execution of Charles I they were dragged to Tyburn. They were hung from the gallows all day before being taken down and having the heads severed from the bodies. It took more than one blow to remove Cromwell's head. The heads were set up on poles at Westminster Hall as a warning against regicide and treason.
Eyewitness accounts
There are several descriptions of the events of 30th January 1661. A merchant, Samuel Sainthill wrote...
"they were hanged by the neck from morning. Cromwell in a green seare cloth, very fresh embalmed; Ireton....hung like a dried rat"
From warning to curiosity
Cromwell's head is known to have been on display for over twenty years. The last account of it on Westminster Hall was in 1684. At some point after that it disappeared, and there are alternative theories as to its whereabouts for most of the eighteenth century.
So what do we know?
At some point soon after 1684 the head either fell or was taken down. There is a strong tradition that it was blown off in a gale, retrieved by a sentry, and hidden for many years.
There is some evidence that it was in a private museum in London as early as 1710, but how it arrived there, and how it later passed to its next owner is uncertain. He was a hard up actor manager, Samuel Russell, who had the head by the early 1770's at the latest. Russell tried to sell the head to Cromwell's old college Sidney Sussex, but it was refused.
On display
It is possible that Russell may have put the head on display, in Butchers' Row just off the Strand, and charged for admission. He did find a buyer in 1787, when James Cox, who had at one time also owned a private museum of curiosities, bought it for £118.
Cox in turn sold the head to three brothers named Hughes for £230, almost doubling his investment. They did put the head on exhibition at Mead Court off Bond Street in 1799. A pamphlet was commissioned from a man called Cranch, who also painted the head.
The exhibition failed. There is some evidence that it was later exhibited in other commercial museums, until its sale to Josiah Henry Wilkinson in 1814. In 1822 it was noted that "Mr Wilkinson its present owner doats upon it".
The Wilkinson head - and its scientific study
The Wilkinson Family continued to own the head into the twentieth century. Its owner, Canon Horace Wilkinson, agreed in the early 1930's to allow two scientists full access to the head, to make a study of it and try to determine whether or not it was authentic. They published their results in 1935 in a very full report extending to over 100 pages of text, and over 100 illustrations. Their conclusion was that the head was that of Oliver Cromwell.
The study by Pearson and Morant is the most detailed appraisal of the head ever made. As access to the head is no longer possible it will always remain the definitive study.
The report discusses in detail the processes of a 17th century post mortem, and what is known to have happened to Cromwell's body. No inconsistencies with the physical evidence were found. Similarly they compared the treatment of the corpse in 1661 with the head, and no reason could be found to doubt its authenticity.
Using a variety of measurements they also set out to compare the head with known life studies of Cromwell, which confirmed the relationship. The report, which is neither the most pleasant or lightweight to read, led them to conclude that the head was that of Oliver Cromwell.
The final resting place
Following the death of Canon Wilkinson a suitable home was sought for the head. After some debate the Master and Fellows of Sidney Sussex College, Cambridge accepted the head, where it was buried on the 25th March 1960.
Canon Wilkinson kept the head in a wooden box. Prior to the Pearson and Morant study he had allowed it to be examined by the Royal Archaeological Institute in 1911, but had formally objected to the publication of a report. Although he refused permission for the BBC to film the head in 1954 he was known to show the head to local children!
On his death it was stored in a bank vault in Woodbridge whilst a suitable home were found. It was offered to Sidney Sussex College, Cambridge on 12th February 1960, and accepted by the College Council. The head was finally re- buried almost 300 years after it had been dug up from Westminster Abbey. It now rests somewhere within the ante-chapel at the College, the precise spot unmarked to ensure that it is left in peace.
What happened to the rest of the body?
There has been a lot of speculation and wild rumour about what happened to the rest of Cromwell's body. Suggestions include
It was buried in a 'quiet spot' in Holborn
The remains were taken to be buried in Huntingdon
It was buried deep beneath the battlefield at Naseby
The suggestion that Cromwell's daughter Mary spirited the body away to Newburgh Priory in Yorkshire, is the alternative which some prefer. The claim is enhanced by the presence of a Cromwell vault, but it has never been allowed to be opened and the remains examined.
The most likely explanation is that the body was left in the burial pit at Tyburn, close to the site of Marble Arch at the West End of Oxford Street, London.
http://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/leisure/museums/cromwell/online/
_________________ William Potter
ScotWatch International
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scotwatch/
Jefferson Republican Party
http://jeffersonrepublicanparty.com
http://jeffersonrepublican.blogspot.com/ |
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Pragmatic Pict No Longer a Wean
Joined: 24 Aug 2006 Posts: 60
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Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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Good ridance. I agreed with what he tried to achieve but I hated the way he went against most of the policies he stood for (and also against the levellers) and that he was as corrupt as previous rulers. Added to that the roundheads smashed beautiful church artifacts. It was just tragic.
It does seem a bit daft and pathetic to hang a dead man. Something a sore loser would do.
Be it Cromwell or the monarchy they were just as bad as evil as each other. _________________
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Morph I really have nothing else to do!!!

Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 872
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Well in Cromwell setting up the 'Protector ' office he replaced one hereditary post, that of king, with another. Like many political visionaries after him, power corrupts once it is obtained. Interesting article Slim _________________ "An oppressive government is to be more feared than a tiger" |
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mairead Jim Baxter is God...........really!!!!

Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 3106 Location: Argyll, Alba
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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:41 pm Post subject: Cromwell goes to hell |
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Aye and he'll meet a few friends there, like William, Duke of Cumberland, may his black soul rot without peace. _________________ I fear not hell, nor English strife,
For Scotland, I will give my life |
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Pragmatic Pict No Longer a Wean
Joined: 24 Aug 2006 Posts: 60
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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: Cromwell goes to hell |
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| mairead wrote: | | Aye and he'll meet a few friends there, like William, Duke of Cumberland, may his black soul rot without peace. |
I hope the Duke is made to relive all the atrocities against the Scots as every victim experienced!  _________________
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mairead Jim Baxter is God...........really!!!!

Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 3106 Location: Argyll, Alba
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Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: Seot, 3rd. cromwell goes to hell |
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Relive them ! I hope the cruel B.....d suffers them tenfold. _________________ I fear not hell, nor English strife,
For Scotland, I will give my life |
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sandmountainslim I Love 'Our Scotland'

Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 354 Location: Fyffe, Alabama
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| Pragmatic Pict wrote: |
It does seem a bit daft and pathetic to hang a dead man. Something a sore loser would do.
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You must have missed the discussion on Siol a few months back where I was threatening to locate his ugly head and grind it into hog-feed
Margaret said that it would most likely make the swine sick to eat such filth!
WP _________________ William Potter
ScotWatch International
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scotwatch/
Jefferson Republican Party
http://jeffersonrepublicanparty.com
http://jeffersonrepublican.blogspot.com/ |
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mairead Jim Baxter is God...........really!!!!

Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 3106 Location: Argyll, Alba
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:16 pm Post subject: September 3rd 1658, Cromwell goes to hell |
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Well, daft and pathetic it may well seem to us, but desecration of a body after burial was a form of revenge taking not unknown in these times. _________________ I fear not hell, nor English strife,
For Scotland, I will give my life |
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BonnieBlueFlag No Longer a Wean

Joined: 28 May 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Just another in a long time of foreign rulers....we're still stuck with the German royal family. _________________
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Blackleaf Confirmed TROLL

Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 810 Location: Lancashire
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Cromwell didn't try to get rid of the monarchy during the English Civil War. He achieved that accidentally.
My town - Bolton, Lancashire - was one of the main players of the English Civil War. It was a large Puritan area, and so supported Cromwell and the Roundheads against Charles I and the Cavaliers.
On 28th May 1644, Prince Rupert and his Royalist soldiers (Cavaliers) entered the town and massacred hundreds of its inhabitants. Some of the townspeople had to line up whilst Cavaliers ran their swords through their abdomens. The army was led by the Earl of Derby.
This was the third major assault against Bolton by the Royalists and, of the 3000 local troops led by Colonel Rigby, 1500 were left dead, and 700 taken prisoner.
After Cromwell's Parliamentarian victory, the Earl of Derby, James Stanley was hunted down and captured in Cheshire. After a three day trial, he was taken to Bolton. He spent his last hours at Ye Olde Man and Scythe public house in Churchgate in the town centre, then beheaded right outside it on October 15th 1651.
He had to wait inside Ye Olde Man and Scythe for around three hours whilst they finished erecting the scaffold outside.
The pub still stands today and is the third oldest pub in England. The chair that he sat in for those three hours and the axe used to chop his head off are on display inside the pub - which is said to be haunted by him.
Outside the pub, there is a tall column with a cross on top marking the very spot of his execution.
Where the Earl of Derby spent his last hours in 1651.
This is the chair that the Earl of Derby sat in, before he was taken outside and executed for his part in the English Civil War. The inscription written on the top of the chair reads 15th October 1651 In this chair James 7th Earl of Derby sat at the Man and Scythe Inn, Churchgate, Bolton immediately prior to his execution.
The column and the cross outside the Ye Olde Man and Scythe public house on Churchgate, Bolton town centre, mark the exact spo where the Earl of Derby was beheaded. _________________ [img]http://home.att.net/~chuckayoub/black_sabbath/black-sabbath-1970.jpg
[/img]
Black Sabbath - 1970
Last edited by Blackleaf on Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Blackleaf Confirmed TROLL

Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 810 Location: Lancashire
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| BonnieBlueFlag wrote: | | Just another in a long time of foreign rulers....we're still stuck with the German royal family. |
They're foreign to the English too, don't forget.
In fact, the Queen Mother was Scottish, so our Queen is more Scottish than English. _________________ [img]http://home.att.net/~chuckayoub/black_sabbath/black-sabbath-1970.jpg
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Black Sabbath - 1970 |
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Congal I Love 'Our Scotland'
Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 299
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting stuff Blackleaf. Lived near Blackburn for a while. Never knew nothing about that pub. _________________ English ascendancy and Irish chauvinism have combined[and still are] to suppress knowledge of Ulster and Ulster history |
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Blackleaf Confirmed TROLL

Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 810 Location: Lancashire
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Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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Because Bolton executed a member of the Royal Family during the English Civil War, the town (the largest in Britain and larger than cities such as Newcastle) as not been allowed, until recently, to be granted city status. It has still not been granted it.
Ye Olde Man and Scythe homepage - http://partyboysuk.tripod.com/index.htm
One of Britain's top ten oldest public houses and the oldest in Bolton (1251 first recorded mention of it by name), the Ye Olde Man and Scythe, located on Church Gate, is the most well known and a part of Bolton's heritage.
History
It is not the known the original date the Ye Olde Man and Scythe was built, but a charter of 1251 permitting the market mentions it by name. Due to the age of the building though, it has been rebuilt at least once (1636 according to the datestone inside), and only the vaulted cellar remains of the original building, though some of the internal beams remain from 1636 rebuild.
In 1651 the Earl of Derby was executed outside the Man and Scythe (owned at the time by the Earl of Derby's family). Outside, there is a cross on the site that bears a plaque which relates stories of Bolton through the ages. And within the pub, there is a chair that the Earl of Derby sat in just before being taken outside to be beheaded; an inscription on the chair reads: "15th October 1651 In this chair James 7th Earl of Derby sat at the Man and Scythe Inn, Churchgate, Bolton immediately prior to his execution". Due to this beheading of a Royal, Bolton was excluded from being given city status (being involved in any promotional votes) up until recent date, and is yet to claim that status.
Drinks
The pub itself sells many drinks from Old Speckled Hen to Newcastle Brown Ale, but it is most famous for its Thatchers. Once bought they can be drunk within one of 4 places: the main bar area, the front room, the middle room, or the beer garden.
***************
The pub is also reputed to be haunted by TWENTY ghosts, which probably makes the pub the most haunted building in Bolton - and probably the most haunted pub in England.
The Earl of Derby's ghost is often seen in the Museum Room - the room with a display cabinet with the chair that he sat on prior to his execution and the axe and chopping block used to behead him.
------------------------------
1644 - May the 28th
The Massacre of Bolton. This occured outside as described in the late Victorian book, 'John o' God Sending' or 'The Lass at the Man & Scythe.' Somewhere between 100 and 500 soldiers and civilians were killed. The main killing ground was in the centre of the town, which was in front of the pub.
1651 - October the 15th, 3 o' clock pm
James Stanley, 7th Earl of Derby, (left), was beheaded in the marketplace outside the pub. He took his last meal at the inn with James Cockrel, the licensee of the time. The chair he sat in prior to his execution exists to this day and is displayed in the museum room. James was execited by the Parliamentary forces because of his support for Charles Stuardt and the Royalists in their attack on the Bolton fortification in Old Acres, near to Bolton Cross.
1820s
Tom Donnovan 'found' the chair. This 1590 Flemish style chair is in a cabinet in the museum room. It bears its original brass label stating that Derby sat in the chair prior to his execution. This chair was damaged several times in the 20th century, (by the WHO in 1965, for example). The flagstone floor in the front bar was laid around this time, over the original 12th century floor, which would have been beaten clay overlaid with ashes and cobblestones. The holes that used to secure the back wall of the Victorian bar can still be seen in this floor.
1850s
Part of the inn was destroyed by fire in the middle of the 19th century. It was at this time that the remaining wattle and daub walls were replaced with bricks, and the ceiling of the museum room was created. _________________ [img]http://home.att.net/~chuckayoub/black_sabbath/black-sabbath-1970.jpg
[/img]
Black Sabbath - 1970 |
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mairead Jim Baxter is God...........really!!!!

Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 3106 Location: Argyll, Alba
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:20 am Post subject: |
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Blackleaf,
Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, the Queen Mother, was not Scottish. She was born in England. her ancestry were also English. She is known as the Scottish Queen mother because her family seat is at Glamis castle and her father the Earl of Strathmore was also English born. The late Princess Margaret however, was born in Scotland. _________________ I fear not hell, nor English strife,
For Scotland, I will give my life |
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Wolf of Badenoch 'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!

Joined: 05 Feb 2006 Posts: 526 Location: Scotland
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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Lumpin f**k Troll ye managed tae post aw that wi oot a mention ae ra dailymail.co.uk
Credit whaur credits due though,it wis a guid read. _________________ The Wolf Is At The Door |
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Babygael Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!

Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 2489 Location: Bajan land
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:35 am Post subject: |
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Nice wan Woofie!
missin yer posts  _________________ Ath-bheothachad
Here is where I come to water my roots. |
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Wolf of Badenoch 'Our Scotland' = 2nd Job!

Joined: 05 Feb 2006 Posts: 526 Location: Scotland
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Babygael wrote: | Nice wan Woofie!
missin yer posts  |
Haw BG ne`er mind ra woofie cairry oan,Wolfy as in Citizen Smith an that.
Freedom for Tooting!! _________________ The Wolf Is At The Door |
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Babygael Collecting my 'Our Scotland' Pension!

Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 2489 Location: Bajan land
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Why then do they always go on as if the Queen Mum wis a Scot? I hate it when English Royality treat Scotland as their own when they are guests only.Running their butchers aprons up our castles flag poles, a desecration and a slap in the face is what I call it.
Not that I have anything against them personally,I think William is richt bonnie and would make a good king fer the engerlish. _________________ Ath-bheothachad
Here is where I come to water my roots. |
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Blackleaf Confirmed TROLL

Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 810 Location: Lancashire
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Babygael wrote: | | Why then do they always go on as if the Queen Mum wis a Scot? |
Because she was Scottish.
| Quote: | | I hate it when English Royality treat Scotland as their own when they are guests only |
BRITISH royalty, love. BRITISH royalty.
The things I read on this forum just goes to show what dire straits the Scottish education system is in at the moment.
And, if anything, it's the English who are being ruled by the Scottish monarchy as it was the Scottish King James VI who united the two nations under one Crown and put himself on the Throne of England as James I. _________________ [img]http://home.att.net/~chuckayoub/black_sabbath/black-sabbath-1970.jpg
[/img]
Black Sabbath - 1970 |
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One O'Clock Gun No Longer a Wean

Joined: 26 Jul 2006 Posts: 65 Location: Inside a cannon
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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Wow- 12 days later.
What a quick witted come-back. _________________ a country with 'democratic' and 'people' in it's title, usually has scant regard for either. |
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