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RBK · Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:28 pm Post subject: Bruce And Ulster

Just reading a book [near finished] by Nigel Tranter 'The Steps To The Empty Throne. An excerpt from the book reads
[Comyn speaking to Bruce]

''Aye--traitor,as I have ever known you! Sold to Edward, always Sold,for his favour. And his Ulsterwoman,de Burgh...!''

In the book Bruce is married To Elizabeth de Burgh. Was he?
Was she an Ulsterwoman? She is called Lady Ulster sometimes.

It then goes to say that the stone that Edward took to England was the wrong one and Bruce is duly crowned on the proper one which had been hidden away.

It then says,

''Next day, therefore, the King of Scots as least was enthroned on the Stone of Destiny,even if there was no MacDuff to place him theron. To the defening clamour of trumpet fanfares the new monarch strode alone up through the crowded church to the high altar, and there seated himself upon the ancient Stone, which legand claimed to have been Jacob's pillow in the wilderness, brought to Ireland by Scota, Pharaoh's daughter,from whom the Scota took their name,but which was more likely to have been the portable altar of a travelling saint, possibly Columba himself.''

There is an Scotland/Ulster connection again,
With the Scota and Columbia both being mentioned. Is this all fiction. Married to an Ulsterwoman, The Stone of Destiny etc or is it based on fact.

patriot1320 · Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:04 pm Post subject:

its based on fact....

http://www.heritage.me.uk/people/bruce.htm

RBK · Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:18 pm Post subject:

Cheers patriot.

There was also a mention of a king or chief called Canmore and the old Celtic church, and that Canmore's wife cajoled
Canmore into adapting the Roman church.

It says in that book that Bruce's life was saved by an Englishman.

Wallace was in it too,it was Bruce who knighted him[according to this book]. Is this true?

Wallace came across as more of a guerilla fighter. Hiding out in Etterick forest.

Abieuan · Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:34 pm Post subject:

RBK · Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:58 pm Post subject:

I read the whole triology by Nigel Tranter. I thought they were very good for a novice like myself. He paints a picture for you,maybe not one for the serious historian,but I enjoyed them.

Sometimes it can be a wee bit confusing like when he had Bruce hiding in the highlands,after he was defeated and meeting a strange old man,the keeper of some sacred relic. The old man spoke the gaidhlig[if thats the right spelling] and Bruce couldn't understand him,because he didn't have the Gaidhlig. Then in the second book he has him conversing in it.

He does have him on Rathlin Island of the Antrim coast. We were told at school this is where he had his encounter with the spider[if it ever happened] but Tranter has this happening at the Grags of Doon[I think it was].

But overall they were a good read. And he has him landing at Carrickfergus,so he beat King Billy to it by a few hundred years. So there was two Kings who landed at Carrickfergus. I never knew that,it would be a good 'un for the Bar/Club.

RBK · Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:27 pm Post subject:

Just reading another part of the trilogy. Bruce himself goes over to Ulster,then later down into Ireland to help his brother. But he doesn't like it there.

He can't have the Irish and can't wait to get home. Which he does do,leaving his brother to it.

RBK · Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:04 pm Post subject:

Who was the Englishman that saved Bruce's life?. He was related to Bruce in some way. I think the battle took place on the east coast, nr Edinburgh.

I've a feeling it had two words in its name and started with an 'M' could be away out of course.

But after this defeat Bruce headed for the highlands to hide out, and seek support.

Neil · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject:

The Ulster of Bruce's day was inhabited by the ancestor's of Irish catholics. The protestant population of Ulster immigrated from Scotland under Queen & King James after a particularly thorough suppression of rebellion among the previous population. This is ultimately the cause of the current ethnic hatreds.

Of course the Scots were originally an Irish people who moved to Scotland & suppressed crebellion among the previous Pictish inhabitants - its an old story.
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Blackleaf · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:26 pm Post subject:

Robert the Bruce had English ancestry. His father was an Anglo-Norman.
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Blackleaf · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:27 pm Post subject:

azzuri · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 3777

I've never understood the obsession of peoples roots or where they came from.

The important thing to Scots is that he fought for and with the Scots and led them to victory against an English oppressor, not who his family were or where they were from.
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Blackadder · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 28 Jul 2006 Posts: 4297

IF Convenor · Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:01 pm Post subject:

The Bruces went to Ireland to open up a second front against Longshanks, not as part of his army.

Bruce's second wife was from Ulster, and he was fluent in Gaelic as his mother was from Galloway. He was also the second-largest landowner in England before he took the Scottish crown, in his capacity as Earl of Huntingdon. No doubt he had many relatives in England.

One more thing, there was a MacDuff to crown Bruce. The Countess of Buchan who crowned Bruce did so because she was one of the MacDuffs from Fife.
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Blackadder · 'Our Scotland' Fossil Joined: 28 Jul 2006 Posts: 4297

Longshanks was in Ireland before Scotland and the Bruces were part of that force. The second front you mention came much later when The Bruce finally turned against his English Lord. Better a King in Scotland than an Earl in England, eh??

Tranter faithfully records the Countess of Buchan's necessity in his "Bruce" trilogy. Novelist or pseudo-historian, his research was pretty meticulous in most respects. If you don't or didn't get Scottish history at school ... pick up a Tranter ... it's better than knowing sod-all!

Corby Boy · Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:27 pm Post subject:

RBK are you also Congal, I note your signature and it is the same?

"ENGLISH ASCENDANCY AND IRISH CHAUVINISM HAVE COMBINED TO SUPPRESS KNOWLEDGE OF ULSTER AND ULSTER'S HISTORY"

The Bruce Trilogy by Tranter is an excellent read, it was one of the first things to fire my nationalist zeal as a wee boy.

Babygael · Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:03 am Post subject:

For once BA I believe you! So what was the name of the Lady who stood for Bruce at his initiation as King? I think longshanks held her in a cage on the castle walls,or something?
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mairead · Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:03 am Post subject:

Babygael, King Robert Bruce was crowned twice and the Countess of Buchan put the golden coronet on his head at the second coronation.
She was held in a cage by Longshanks but later when the wife and daughter of Bruce were released no trace was found of the Countess. It is assumed that she died during her cruel imprisonment in England. She just vanished from history without trace, like so many before and after her.
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Babygael · Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject:

Thank you miread and IF, I had heard all about the Countess of Buchan on a Radio Scotland program but I could not for the life of me remember her name and was trying to find her on one google search after another. They called her by her Gaelic name and that she was a female chieftain.

As you say she was the one then who was held in a cage for years by Edward Longshanks. Well that took a load off, it was starting to bug me big time!!
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